From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Sep 02 14:43:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76493 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 21:43:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 21:43:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 21:43:33 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EBJJr-0001J7-RT for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:43:32 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EBJJR-0001Hr-AF; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:43:07 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EBJJ9-0001Gw-IU for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:42:47 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.205]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EBJJ2-0001GW-K2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:42:47 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i25so132000wra for ; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.71.11 with SMTP id t11mr2212678wra; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.152.20 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:42:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: <737b61f305090214262772927d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_627_4216135.1125697359463" References: <737b61f305090214262772927d@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-archive-position: 10480 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: tbovee@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Timothy Bovee/DayPoems From: Timothy Bovee/DayPoems Reply-To: tbovee@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban as an auxiliary language X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=mgZIsuECi7P28Yq33-gumlpI-3lYI-_wUBkVZxGQponyXB3WSw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24861 ------=_Part_627_4216135.1125697359463 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/2/05, Chris Capel wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Does anyone have any thoughts about the propriety of using lojban in a > situation where there is no other common language between two parties? > If one party is living in the United States and speaks no English, > would the effort spent learning lojban be worth the ability to > communicate at all with Lojban-and-English-speakers before learning > English well enough to really communicate? Or would these foreigners > be better off spending all of their (limited) time and effort in > learning English? >=20 > I know that English is much more idomatic, inconsistent, and generally > demanding than lojban is, but learning a useful vocabulary in any > language, no matter how easy in comparison to other languages, is > never a small investment. >=20 > Chris Capel > -- > "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it > like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" > -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) >=20 >=20 > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >=20 >=20 If the two parties natively speak languages from the same major group, then= =20 perhaps lojban is overkill. Two Indo-European speakers would probably do=20 better with Esperanto.=20 However, I think that lojban of all conlangs would give the clearest=20 communication between major language groups. For example, English-speakers= =20 and Japanese-speakers have the conceit that they are communicating well in= =20 one language or the other, but the concept categories are so wildly=20 different between the languages that, in my opinion based on years in Japan= =20 and decades in a mixed-language household, understanding is often quite=20 flawed. Whatever the difficulties in learning lojban, it has the advantage that=20 concepts are rigorously defined, allowing culture-neutral communication. Tim --=20 Tim Bovee, Herndon, Va. tbovee@gmail.com/www.daypoems.net ------=_Part_627_4216135.1125697359463 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/2/05, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Does anyone have any thoughts about the propriety of using l= ojban in a
situation where there is no other common language between two= parties?
If one party is living in the United States and speaks no Engl= ish,
would the effort spent learning lojban be worth the ability to
commu= nicate at all with Lojban-and-English-speakers before learning
English w= ell enough to really communicate? Or would these foreigners
be better of= f spending all of their (limited) time and effort in
learning English?

I know that English is much more idomatic, inc= onsistent, and generally
demanding than lojban is, but learning a useful= vocabulary in any
language, no matter how easy in comparison to other l= anguages, is
never a small investment.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it = like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a = bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind'= s I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with t= he subject unsubscribe, or go to ht= tp://www.lojban.org/lsg2/ , or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

=

If the two parties natively speak languages from the same major group, then perhaps lojban is overkill. Two Indo-European speakers would probably do better with Esperanto.

However, I think that lojban of all conlangs would give the clearest communication between major language groups. For example, English-speakers and Japanese-speakers have the conceit that they are communicating well in one language or the other, but the concept categories are so wildly different between the languages that, in my opinion based on years in Japan and decades in a mixed-language household, understanding is often quite flawed.

Whatever the difficulties in learning lojban, it has the advantage that concepts are rigorously defined, allowing culture-neutral communication.
Tim
--
Tim Bovee, Herndon, Va.
tbovee@gmail.com/www.d= aypoems.net



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