From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Sep 08 15:19:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72225 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2005 22:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Sep 2005 22:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 2005 22:19:55 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EDUkO-0002JS-6m for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:19:56 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EDUk0-0002Hl-VZ; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:19:41 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EDUSz-0001mG-Gj for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:01:57 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EDUSw-0001m1-QL for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:01:57 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id x7so1319974nzc for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.66.9 with SMTP id o9mr8170572nza; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.61.18 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f305090815012e631a56@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:01:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: <6d05615ec054387b5fe7b527ec03608a@xahlee.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <6d05615ec054387b5fe7b527ec03608a@xahlee.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10544 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Chris Capel From: Chris Capel Reply-To: pdf23ds@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban's difficulty X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=FScdk8vwly0Ct49XQ7v1tb3xZVB6bHw1A13rnJjagQRiJ2Y5tw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24926 On 9/8/05, xah lee wrote: > on lojban.org site it is touted that lojban is really easy to learn, > easier than for example any natural language, because it is artificial > and being regular. > > But I think actually lojban is probably very difficult to learn, > because to understand lojban is tantamount to exploring the semantics > and logic of human communication. I get the very same feeling in a course on English grammar. It's not that Lojban is a difficult language to learn, it's that *any* language requires either lots of exposure and learning-by-hearing-and-repeating, or a conscious understanding of the semantics of the words that you're using. Native speakers of a language learn using the first method, but only the second method brings up the issues of semantics and logic. As for the example, English makes the same distinction, only it's less picky. "I drink the juice" can be treating the juice as a mass or as a unit; it's not really clear. But when forming plurals, nouns treated as a mass never change over to plural. You can have "two apples", but not "two waters", unless by "two waters" you mean two glasses or bottles or bodies of water. Correct speaking in Lojban, as far as I can tell, requires very little more than other languages in semantical distinctions, and those semantical distinctions are ones that are understood by the speakers even if they are not part of the grammar. The only problem is that these distinctions cannot be taught without a vocabulary to describe them, and introducing people to that vocabulary can be difficult, because people aren't always aware of these distinctions. > One may still argue that it is difficult only > because human are not used to it, that for someone who have studied it > for a while or grew up with lojban would come with ease. On the contrary, it is difficult only because it is foreign. It's difficult in exactly the same way that learning Spanish would be, only a little more so. > This may be > right, but still i think no other natural language forces user to > understand semantic and logic like lojban therefore makes lojban quite > more difficult than learning any natural language. If you'd like to bring up specific distinctions made by lojban that aren't made, even implicitly, by other languages, I'm sure many of us would be interested to hear it. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.