From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Oct 02 13:49:59 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EMAmK-0004FB-U1 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:49:49 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.205]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EMAmJ-0004F3-1t for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:49:48 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so106923wra for ; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tn1XDTSPo8wLm0Gy4xMv8NMwXl4aj+e97/CYptqUTrcnuDit/sEwLP1mRwsil8MEXWAyciEfybfsZAJja/hzdwYwil5j7j1o4t6sHhmp10PUm3vyt6ySjy3x/tDRjZpiMT54PrXcAA43ptJaiMg5Wv1ncdFgN1SkvRaDpdAorgI= Received: by 10.54.71.4 with SMTP id t4mr1387563wra; Sun, 02 Oct 2005 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.142.3 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Oct 2005 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 16:49:46 -0400 From: Matt Arnold To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: {lo} down In-Reply-To: <20051002202314.GC14240@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10953_19170069.1128286186416" References: <200510022116.58524.lojban@solipsys.co.uk> <20051002202314.GC14240@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 10707 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_10953_19170069.1128286186416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 10/2/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 02, 2005 at 09:16:58PM +0100, lojban@solipsys.co.uk > wrote: > > > > >> For someone who basically left the lojban project 8 years or > > >> more ago because of this type of bickering > > > > > I'm curious to know, who are you? > > > > Charles Babbage, in his essay "Decline of Science in England" > > wrote > > > > " If a fact is to be established by testimony, anonymous > > assertion is of no value; if it can be proved, by evidence to > > which the public have access, it is of no consequence (for the > > cause of truth) who produces it. A matter of opinion derives > > weight from the name which is attached to it; but a chain of > > reasoning is equally conclusive, whoever may be its author. " > > Is that relevant in some way? He didn't say "I won't care what you > say until you prove you're worthy to say it", he simply said he was > curious. Right. I don't know what topic of dispute this are referring to, or the speaker's position is on it. I just want to be polite by speaking to him/he= r by a name. Since he/she has declined the courtesy of being allowed to choos= e his/her own name, I christen him/her "Solypsis" after the e-mail address. > > I guess back then people joined up in order to have the kind of > > > conversation John and xorxes are having. > > > > I think that is untrue. I personally know 3 people who, after an > > initial expression of interest in the language, cited these > > exchanges - I can't call them discussions - as their reason for > > giving up. > > > > It was the only reason ever given. What was their issue with the exchanges? Did these exchanges convince them that Lojban is seriously incomplete and does not acheive its goals? Or, did they feel continuing in the Lojban community would constantly expose them t= o unpleasant disputes, or to matters over their heads that they don't care about? Or is it some other thing? > > So, do you know what the semantics of {lo} are? Can you explain it to > me? > > > What is the difference between {lo tavla} and {le tavla}? If I understand correctly (and I am not at all convinced that I do), one is to use {lo samxa'a} if you are to say "In the year nineteen-such-and-such e-mail was created by so-and-so" in the sense that they invented e-mail and gave it to the world; and one is to use {le samxa'a} to say "right now I create e-mail and send it to Solypsis." If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me; I don't claim any point of view or a claim about how it ought t= o be. I'm just reporting my interpretation of what I've read. If I'm speaking Lojban wrong, that's OK, I'll figure it out eventually. > > It is leaving the stage where the project is to develop the > > > language, and entering the stage where the project is to spread > > > the language and accumulate a huge corpus of texts. > > > > And I am extemely pleased to see it doing so. However, whence > > cometh the texts aimed at beginners, with easy grammar and easy > > vocabulary? Your podcasts are superb, but horror novels using > > even mildly complex grammar and large vocabularies are not > > effective texts for beginners. I think my ongoing translation of Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet is mostly simple grammar, with some exceptions. The upcoming web comic by me and .xiliodor. will be extremely simple. -epkat ------=_Part_10953_19170069.1128286186416 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 10/2/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>= wrote:
On Sun, Oct 02, 2005 at 09:16:58PM +0100, lojban@solipsys.co.uk
wrote:
>
> >> For so= meone who basically left the lojban project 8 years or
> >> mor= e ago because of this type of bickering
>
> > I'm curious to know, who are you?
>
> Cha= rles Babbage, in his essay "Decline of Science in England"
>= ; wrote
>
>     " If a fact is to be e= stablished by testimony, anonymous
>     assertion is of no value; if it can be pro= ved, by evidence to
>     which the public have a= ccess, it is of no consequence (for the
>     cau= se of truth) who produces it.  A matter of opinion derives
>     weight from the name which is attached to = it; but a chain of
>     reasoning is equally con= clusive, whoever may be its author. "

Is that relevant in some = way?  He didn't say "I won't care what you
say until you prove you're worthy to say it", he simply said he wa= s
curious.

Right. I don't know what topic of dispute this are referring to, or the speaker's position is on it. I just want to be polite by speaking to him/her by a name. Since he/she has declined the courtesy of being allowed to choose his/her own name, I christen him/her "Solypsis"= after the e-mail address.

> &g= t; I guess back then people joined up in order to have the kind of
> = > conversation John and xorxes are having.
>
> I think that is untrue.  I personally know 3 peo= ple who, after an
> initial expression of interest in the language, c= ited these
> exchanges - I can't call them discussions - as their rea= son for
> giving up.
>
> It was the only reason ever given.

What was their issue with the exchanges? Did these exchanges convince them that Lojban is seriously incomplete and does not acheive its goals? Or, did they feel continuing in the Lojban community would constantly expose them to unpleasant disputes, or to matters over their heads that they don't care about? Or is it some other thing?

> &g= t; So, do you know what the semantics of {lo} are?  Can you expla= in it to me?
> > What is the difference between {lo tavla} and {le tavla}?

If I understand correctly (and I am not at all convinced that I do), one is to use {lo samxa'a} if you are to say "In the year nineteen-such-and-such e-mail was created by so-and-so" in the sense that they invented e-mail and gave it to the world; and one is to use {le samxa'a} to say "right now I create e-mail and send it to Solypsis." If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me; I don't clai= m any point of view or a claim about how it ought to be. I'm just reporting my interpretation of what I've read. If I'm speaking Lojban wrong, that's OK, I'll figure it out eventually.

> &g= t; It is leaving the stage where the project is to develop the
> >= language, and entering the stage where the project is to spread
> > the language and accumulate a huge corpus of texts.
>> And I am extemely pleased to see it doing so.  However, wh= ence
> cometh the texts aimed at beginners, with easy grammar and eas= y
> vocabulary?  Your podcasts are superb, but horror novel= s using
> even mildly complex grammar and large vocabularies are not
>= effective texts for beginners.

 I think my ongoing translation of Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet is mostly simple grammar, with some exceptions. The upcoming web comic by me and .xiliodor. will be extremely simple.
-epkat
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