From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Nov 07 08:15:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93489 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2005 16:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2005 16:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2005 16:15:41 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EZ9Vb-0000m2-U8 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:06:12 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EZ9VD-0000l4-A4; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:05:51 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EZ9Uw-0000kv-4O for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:05:30 -0800 Received: from web81304.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.79]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EZ9Uu-0000ko-UM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:05:29 -0800 Received: (qmail 73929 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Nov 2005 16:05:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20051107160527.73927.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.34.50] by web81304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:05:27 PST Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:05:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1487208813.20051107212945@mail.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-archive-position: 10759 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Exact translation of the pronoun "we" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=ooW7W4jqs-3rdtO9QA6sJBPdlEAcPd644QiBrx60DNpFU0xVHg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25149 -- Yanis Batura wrote: > Dear Lojbanists, > > is there an EXACT translation of English > pronoun "we" > (the semantics of which is something like: > me, the speaker, and AT LEAST one other person > somehow related to me)? More importantly, somehow related to the present conversation situation: as cospeaker, listener, topic, or bystander. English "we" does not distinguish among the possible accompaniers of me: listeners alone, third parties alone, or both second and third parties. The closest is probably {ma'a} which takes in both second and third parties. It would work if we allowed that one or the other of these might reduce to 0 (a not unheard of kind of case). Or the "and" be treated as "or". > neither mi, nor mi'e do fit: > > mi > KOhA3 > me > pro-sumti: me/we the speaker(s)/author(s); > identified by self-vocative > > mi'a > KOhA3 > we, not you > pro-sumti: me/we the speaker(s)/author(s) & > others unspecified, but not you, the listener > > > we can see from these definitions that both mi > and mi'a could mean "me", which is far from > what "we" means :) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.