From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Dec 09 10:20:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34023 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2005 18:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2005 18:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2005 18:20:48 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1Ekmhs-00085i-8P for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:10:56 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EkmeX-00082r-4s; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:32 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EkmeN-00082i-RD for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:20 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EkmeK-00082W-Oc for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:19 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 71so970542wri for ; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.145.12 with SMTP id s12mr5103718wrd; Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.5 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:07:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560512091007p194e507t2461a44906f94350@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:07:09 -0300 In-Reply-To: <1E7AC75C-B8B7-4749-ADA5-F5FBF8CC4C44@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20051208071730.GY25496@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <4398939A.1090806@lojban.org> <20051209012929.GD2106@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <1E7AC75C-B8B7-4749-ADA5-F5FBF8CC4C44@mac.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10860 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A Proposed Explanation of {gunma} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=09CUb_q9g_1NFoaRjRBE2RaZr-Yj-SD7oQQcfk3RXfIzvN1-IA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25255 On 12/8/05, Kevin Reid wrote: > I have thought that the most sensible explanation is that the x2 of > {gunma} is a set. Today, a discussion with Robin Lee Powell and John > Cowan on #lojban resulted in the following complete list of > conversions, which we agree is sufficient and consistent: > > x1 kind x2 kind relation > gunma mass set x2 is the set of all the parts of x1 > cmima individual set x1 is a member of x2 > pagbu individual mass x1 is a part of x2 > selgunma set mass se gunma > selcmi set individual se cmima > selpau mass individual se pagbu > > The other simple explanation of {gunma}, that the x2 is all of the > members as individuals, is incompatible with predicate logic. Or at least with predicate logic without plural reference. But any treatment of masses that does not reduce them to just another variety of sets is on the same boat. I would oppose redefining {gunma} in this way. Indeed I think what we need is to reduce, not increase, the number of places that are reserved for sets. But a thorough revision of place structures by the BPFK to sort out these kinds of issues would be most welcome. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.