From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Dec 14 14:10:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48141 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2005 22:10:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Dec 2005 22:10:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2005 22:10:33 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmemK-0000K9-SO for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:07:17 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1Emelh-0000Iq-69; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:39 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmelI-0000Ic-5S for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:12 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EmelF-0000IT-0C for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:11 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so218636wri for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.127.3 with SMTP id z3mr1319115wrc; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.1 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:06:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560512141406x743636d5tc525a48e17debff3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:06:05 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20051214215312.GA3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <4398939A.1090806@lojban.org> <1E7AC75C-B8B7-4749-ADA5-F5FBF8CC4C44@mac.com> <925d17560512091007p194e507t2461a44906f94350@mail.gmail.com> <20051214002702.GO3329@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560512131738w2a0bbf4bi61a99d240b6e922a@mail.gmail.com> <20051214061237.GF3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560512141021u2f41a11g644faf6abffe7ba6@mail.gmail.com> <20051214213111.GY3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560512141346t2467a547y6ba5967a19169891@mail.gmail.com> <20051214215312.GA3616@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10886 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A Proposed Explanation of {gunma} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=32gqTfmq5s6HG4m-rFDnwcORmv8MgfdGCKNZEBT9bfNLPO25yQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25282 On 12/14/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Wed, Dec 14, 2005 at 06:46:54PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > {mi joi do} refers to two things, you and I, > > Actually, it doesn't mean anything to my mind, but if it did, it > would be a single thing: the combination of the two of us (WRT some > predication). But then you don't follow McKay. His point is that plural reference does not create a new entity that encompasses the various referents referred to plurally. > > whereas {ko'a} refers to a single thing, that which you and I > > constitute, let's say a society. Then {mi joi do na du ko'a}. > > And there we disagree. I insist that assignment of a joi to a name > or identifier of any type is exactly du, because for the purposes of > any predication, the two things are identical. When the two ways of referring are identical, {du} is appropriate. When they aren't, it isn't. For example, I wouldn't say: {LLG cu rinsa simxu} "The LLG greeted each other", because I think of the LLG as a sinlgle entity. But {mi joi do joi lo drata cu rinsa simxu} is perfectly fine, because {mi joi do joi lo drata} does not refer to a single entity, even if we together do constitute one. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.