From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Dec 12 09:37:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67297 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2005 17:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Dec 2005 17:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 2005 17:37:38 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1ElrYU-0004fH-3a for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:33:42 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1ElrXL-0004eY-9h; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:32:32 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1ElrXC-0004eP-Gk for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:32:22 -0800 Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.21.14]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.54) id 1ElrX9-0004eH-0x for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:32:22 -0800 Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jBCHWFCu024661; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:32:15 -0600 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id jBCHWFtD024658; Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:32:15 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: hive.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:32:15 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <439DA219.5060102@kli.org> Message-ID: References: <439DA219.5060102@kli.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10872 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Adam D. Lopresto" From: "Adam D. Lopresto" Reply-To: adam@pubcrawler.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Missing BAI conversion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=IcI-JTKBEYjFDS0BIydK1-h9iCloccbQw-loJx0MQFNd0jKjtg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25267 {do'e} is indeed the handiest member of BAI. I think both FA and SE can take a subscript (for instance, for lujvo with more than five places), so you might also be able to do something like that. {le se xi tu'o broda} instead of {le jai do'e broda}, and {se xi tu'o va'u da}. Not sure if {tu'o} is right there, but it could be handy. In particular, {fa xi tu'o} asserts that the place you're filling is one of the "real" places, whereas {do'e} adds a new place (without telling you which place, or what predicate it's from). On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > Something that occurred to me at LogFest over the weekend: > > > Robin was recounting his "tale of woe," his problems in getting out to > Philadelphia. In Lojban: this was to be a demonstration of the language, > after all. At one point he was using a gismu with some SE in front of it, > but explained "I don't remember the place-structure of this one; but you > know what I mean." Which of course is perfectly reasonable for colloquial > speech. We really shouldn't feel we have to remember all the > place-structures right when we're talking to people who can work out from > context what makes sense. This, therefore, is a very useful lesson to be > remembered: use {do'e}. If you don't remember which place of the gismu > what you want is, but you know it's there, just flag it with the > nonspecific BAI, do'e, since BAIs also indicate places of the predication. > And if it's a conversion you need, as in "le SE broda" but you don't know > which SE, you use "le jaido'e broda." > > > This is an important trick to know. > > > It occurs to me, though, that there is (at least) one place where you can't > really use this to help. Let's say I want to add a BAI phrase, and I know > it's *some* place of (say) va'u, but I can't remember which one. That is, > I should be saying "SE va'u da..." for some SE. The grammar doesn't allow > "*jaido'e va'u da" and likely can't/shouldn't. But it is what, in some > sense, we would want. "fi'o jai do'e xamgu da" is legal, but a mouthful. > Then again, maybe if you're so messed up, you shouldn't be using the > "shorthand" of BAI anyway. > > > I don't think this is important enough even to contemplate trying to "fix," > but it is something to think about. And using {do'e} is a trick worth > remembering. > > > ~mark > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ Yet another brilliant mind ruined by higher education. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.