From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Dec 16 17:19:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2233 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2005 01:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Dec 2005 01:19:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 2005 01:19:04 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EnQj0-0007Wo-U5 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:19:03 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EnQiN-0003iC-Hq; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:18:24 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EnQht-0002Wc-L0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:17:53 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.205]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EnQhq-0002NA-SY for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:17:53 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so697739wri for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.122.19 with SMTP id u19mr4427532wrc; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.1 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560512161717o10e516a3t8f7b9b22a19036c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:17:49 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20051217003219.92705.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560512161328n27024b5cm795730b66ec40a1@mail.gmail.com> <20051217003219.92705.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10920 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A Proposed Explanation of {gunma} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=4dnUlbNmhsEm9J37tq1e4uDHOivQUDgb5Ek0FvV2NHDM6L3ddQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25316 On 12/16/05, John E Clifford wrote: > So, by you, {lo broda} are just some brodas that > you happen to be considering together for the > nonce, Yes, or a single one. In any case, they are all the brodas in the universe of discourse (not to be confused with all the brodas that exist in the world). > while a gunma is several whatevers > together where there togetherness has achieved > some sort of separate status: a team, a > committee, a wolf pack, and so on, maybe even > enough status that it could continue to be that > thing even if some of the whatevers left and > others came in. Yes, and it is not any special grammatical entity. > In other words, a togeherness > that has achieved reification, which lo broda per > se have not collectively. OK, even if I thought > that {lo broda} was a set of some sort, this > distinction is a useful one to make. How do we > refer to a particular gunma? I suppose with a > description like {lo kamni} (or maybe better, > {le}) or a name: {la ienkis}o Yes. > or explicitly > massifying some tiher object like {lu'o lo > broda}. {lu'o lo broda} would have to be equivalent to {loi broda} (and they would have to refer to more than one broda for lu'o/loi not to be pointless). Neither would be used to refer to a mass. If by massifying you mean something like {lo gunma be lo broda}, then yes. > > > From this I get either that you don't think > > that > > > {lo broda} and {loi broda} are the same > > thing(s) > > > in different predication relations > > > > I do think that they are the same thingS, > > possibly > > in the same predication relation even, but with > > {loi broda} blocking the distributive > > interpretation > > and {lo broda} not blocking it. The plural is > > significant > > because if they were to refer to one thing the > > distinction > > between them vanishes. > > I don't get the last point. {loi broda} is just > some brodas of whom some property is predicated > collectively, {lo broda} is the same guys without > specifying whether the predication involved is > one way or the other. What distinction is lost? I meant that if there is only one broda, then it makes no difference whether you use {lo broda} or {loi broda}, and since I take {loi} to be the marked one, using it would not make much sense. > > I thought you > > were bringing > > it up by suggesting that avatars/exemplars > > would be > > the constituents of an Urgoo, but I probably > > misunderstood. > > I don't suppose that Urgoo, Mr. Broda, for > example, has constituents. OK. This is what you had said that led me astray: "Given that I also take you as saying that {lo broda} and {loi broda} are the same thing only with difference in declared distributivity, I suppose (given your views on what lo broda is) that loi broda -- and hence gunma1 generally -- is some sort of Urgoo, at least in many cases. In which case I suppose that gunma2 is a list of avatars/slices/exemplars/... . Do I have any of this close to right?" My point here is simply that avatars/exemplars are not what goes in the x2 of gunma. > Which seems to mean > that either you have abandoned Mr. Broda as the > referent of {lo broda} -- and with it several of > the peculiar proerties of xorlo -- No, sorry. :) But when Mr Broda is the referent of {lo broda}, being one single thing, distributivity is irrelevant. >or you are > using "not a single thing but several things" in > a very poetic way, which I can't unpack while > keeping it connected to the rest of the > discussion. Not a single mass/bunch/group thing, i.e. not a single thing composed of several brodas. {lo broda} is a single thing (a single broda) in generic reference. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.