From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jan 06 14:25:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62237 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2006 22:25:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jan 2006 22:25:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2006 22:25:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Ev016-0006Mh-7r for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:25:00 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Euzzm-0006LD-FH; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:23:41 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1EuzBx-0005jM-8m for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:32:09 -0800 Received: from eastrmmtao04.cox.net ([68.230.240.35]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1EuzBu-0005jF-6l for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:32:09 -0800 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [24.250.99.39]) by eastrmmtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.05.02 201-2131-123-102-20050715) with ESMTP id <20060106212859.XWEN19943.eastrmmtao04.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]> for ; Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:28:59 -0500 Message-ID: <43BEE1C5.60506@lojban.org> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 16:31:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20060105063129.GY3931@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560601050431i1eb4186bx69847bbda3144d4e@mail.gmail.com> <43BDAC35.6070505@lojban.org> <925d17560601051750x787d5026p6d3b094271b257a3@mail.gmail.com> <43BDD896.4080305@lojban.org> <925d17560601060450xd31451al5cdb7ea581c1d108@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560601060450xd31451al5cdb7ea581c1d108@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11011 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Bob LeChevalier From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: stage 1 and 2 non-fu'ivla X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=PdS0C8GfWxV06WqbRZ8DucwzevY4QvGjpmaIGOTdP4GcrBzTNA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25410 Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 1/5/06, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >>An utterance that includes a zoi quote is Lojban utterance. A zoi quote >>thus "borrows" the foreign text for use in a Lojban utterance. > > But a quoted word is mentioned, not used in the relevant sense. > > For example, if I say in English "What does "casa" mean in Spanish?" > I'm mentioning the Spanish word "casa", but I'm not borrowing it. > If I say "I went into the casa", then I'm using (borrowing) it. I went into the room labeled "hjgngh". has borrowed "hjgngh" into English temporarily surely as much as "casa" was borrowed in your example. *In particular*, the insight I had was that JCB's decade-long quest for a way to borrow Linnean binomials into TLI Loglan so as to make them "Loglan" was a waste of effort, when we had the tools for quoting non-Loglan/Lojban text strings. In English, we can clearly borrow Linneans without modifying them: "The human colon is infested with Escherichia coli". Chinese apparently does the same, and so a scientific Chinese text will have a string of Chinese characters with embedded Roman alphabet strings. There simply is no need to Lojbanize such text strings in order to borrow them - all we need is a way to mark and delimit them so that they don't foul up audiovisual isomorphism, and so that their grammatical role is unambiguously determinate. And we had such a means with ZOI quotes. Thus I invited la'o for quoting Type I borrowings, specifically for Linnean binomials, but recognizing that it also solved the problem of Lojbanizing other single-use borrowings that lose their recognizability when Lojbanized. Since zoi quotes and la'o quotes take the same contents, if a string can be borrowed using la'o, it can be called a "borrowing". The string's function in a zoi quote is not as a borrowing but as a foreign string; in a la'o quote, it is as a borrowing. But it is the same string either way, so we can label the string as-such a "borrowing" in the potential, time-free, sense that we can label anything in Lojban. I agree that in the sentence 'The alien said "hhigutfuyfh;kkhjlgg"', that the text string is not borrowed into English, but Lojban's grammar allows more than mere quoting of alien text strings - it allows them to be used in all the ways that a Lojban sumti or cmene can be used (depending on whether quoted with zoi or la'o, and even a zoi quote can be used in other roles than pure quote, using "me" or mex cmavo). If we disagree on the terminology for this, I think we are rambling in the semantics of English-language "borrow" in a not-especially-useful way, but that is the sense in which >I< labeled them 'Type I "borrowings"'. I have no problem with calling la'o quotes "borrowing" and zoi quotes "quoting" if it eases the dispute, but that terminology reflects the Lojban words attached to the string and are not a categorization of the string itself, *except* in the Lojban context in which it is being used. Thus it is at most a question whether to label based on function or form. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.