From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jan 05 11:47:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75142 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2006 19:47:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jan 2006 19:47:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2006 19:47:38 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Eub4V-0003Kq-Bg for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:46:51 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Eub3w-0003KD-E0; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:46:21 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Eub3X-0003Jw-SA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:45:52 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Eub3U-0003Jp-U5 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:45:51 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so2541755wri for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.72.9 with SMTP id u9mr4238937wra; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.68.7 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:45:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560601051145i30d29219w9a9a222f725755e5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:45:47 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20060105190923.GH4710@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060105183545.GD4710@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560601051052j1323edc0od2c9c142937ec5c3@mail.gmail.com> <20060105190923.GH4710@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11004 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: ki restriction? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=zHgvMx4l1LxU9AieiI6xK0j3RoVJuJ1Tt4KDkYucy8KhVGxG0Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25403 On 1/5/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 03:52:21PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > On 1/5/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > The RefGram says: > > > > > > Note: Modals made with ``fi'o''-plus-selbri cannot be made > > > sticky. This is an unfortunate, but unavoidable, restriction. > > > > > > All three parsers accept "fi'o ki broda da brode". > > > > That's different, > > Different from what? >>From what you're discussing. > > {ki} there is a tag on broda, not on brode. > > What does that mean? A tag always modifies a selbri, either by adding an argument place or directly as a selbri tcita. In {fi'o ki broda}, {ki} is a selbri tcita for {broda}, it is not a tag on {brode}. {fi'o ki broda} is a tag on brode, but the {ki} is internal and does not make the tag sticky for the brode event. > > > 2 out of 3 accept "fi'o broda ki da brode", so it doesn't seem > > > to be a grammatical restriction. > > > > That would be {fi'o broda [ku] ki da brode}. Here the term {ki da} > > is a separate term from the term {fi'o broda ku}. > > ki tags the *following* thing, you're saying? In that sentence, it is acting as a sumti tcita, yes. > > > I don't get it. > > > > This is a proposal for how the grammar of tags could be cleaned up: > > No interest; I'm asking about the current state and why that > restriction exists. The proposal shows how there is no rational explanation for the current state. If even you, who are quite capable of reading a formal grammar, cannot make heads or tails of the current state, can we expect the ordinary lojbanist to? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.