From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 27 07:18:13 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FNtTc-00023s-Tx for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:17:53 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.238]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FNtTY-00023h-MN for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:17:52 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so1501818wra for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:17:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=djJJ2WP+ahsjKciF+50Spy4Z2I1+Vu1tp4N4r1SlOA8spsx/M4XOimM+QrnWLrtKucszfd+ZnQMGjfvHE+yfs1MYWAvRVfhrPlgeIC6hPYjkIFCdKRclu0DpqiPfTfPfEgx1NtNprPz01rY2au1o0j1030ZNsEl/xLPe5Sy3ouA= Received: by 10.54.153.8 with SMTP id a8mr3024240wre; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.13 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 07:11:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560603270711v643ce24cy2506c096ec1e74d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 12:11:04 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: semantic primes can define anything In-Reply-To: <20060327143054.964.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560603270521n425653f4u8de39e9b4497e671@mail.gmail.com> <20060327143054.964.qmail@web81309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11256 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 3/27/06, John E Clifford wrote: > > X often thinks about Y > > X thinks good things about Y > > > > X so'i roi pensi Y > > X jinvi lo zabna Y > > > > The first one does not say that X often has > > opinions about Y, > > but that Y is often on X's mind. > > But can one have someone on one's mind without > some proprositional content? Yes, definitely. But even if one couldn't (which I don't see why not), one could still have some propositional content on one's mind without holding it as an opinion. > As far as I can see > -- from a logical point of view, mind you, not > NSM -- {jinvi} should not have a third place (it > creates all kinds of problems and is an artifact > of English idiom) and {pensi} is then just {jinvi > tu'a}. NSM seems to want {jinvi} with the common > case of dropping the x2. I disagree that {pensi} is {jinvi tu'a}. I can think (pensi) of pigs flying without opining (jinvi) that pigs fly. > > So the sense of {fasnu} would not be prime? > > Apparently not. I don't have cases and the talk > suggests that it is always "Something happens to > something," never "Such and such happens" > (indeed, the grammar for English NSM sentences > doesn't allow an event noun phrase in place of > "such and such"; the best one could get would be > "This happens: such-and-such [as a full > sentence]" Events tend to be unspecified with > "happens" anyhow. So a paraphrase like this would not be allowed: Something happens. X thinks that this is a good thing. > > So part of the problem is that they don't > > manage to explain > > their primes very well. > > Well, of course they are primes so they can't > officially be explained at all. They can't be paraphrased in terms of primes, but surely they can be explained better. > Still, some more > examples would be useful. The only one I have > actually seen that directly deals with this > problem is a comment by Uwe Durst in his rebuttal > article in Theoretical Linguistics 29.3, where he > selects "He moves (a part of) his body" as giving > the sense of MOVE in English (presumably the > volitional twitch, not the "cause to be > displaced" reading even here). Ah, I thought MOVE was not meant to be agentive! I thought it was more like {muvdu}, as in "the ball moves from here to there", but also (unlike {muvdu}) including movement in place. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.