From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Mar 21 16:56:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15213 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2006 00:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Mar 2006 00:56:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Mar 2006 00:56:45 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLreW-00011h-4j for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:56:44 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLrdw-00010T-7K; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:56:09 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLrdV-00010H-6P for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:55:41 -0800 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLrdT-000107-Bt for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:55:40 -0800 Received: (qmail 95289 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Mar 2006 00:55:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20060322005538.95287.qmail@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.183.14] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:55:38 PST Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:55:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17560603210710q38c0551bn92ac7959151deb2b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11202 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: semantic primes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=ryAjzYtQJA1iy2S4C6M6g3qrBDOmCrS6cNt6yPrjp-6-M_Bqog X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25612 Thanks for the list. Mine came out a bit different, largely because of different readings (apparently) of either the NSM list or of the Lojban. The NSM list, since the words are primes, does not get a lot of explanation, although the issue of Theoretical Linguistics on NSM (v. 29, #3) does clarify a few by giving unambiguous (well, much less ambiguous) frames taken as decisive. The Lojban-Lojban section of jbovlaste is a step in the right direction, lacking mainly a definitive list of primes and of normative contexts for definitions. And, of course, covering more words. --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 3/17/06, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com > wrote: > > I'd like to see definitions of Lojban words > in Anna Wierzbicka's Natural > > Semantic Metalanguage (NSM) terms, as well as > definitions of Lojban words in > > the Lojban version of NSM. > > You can find something along that direction in > the Lojban-Lojban section > of jbovlaste. > > Here are Wierzbicka's proposed semantic primes > in English (as of 2002), > taken from > > and how they might go into Lojban: > > Substantives: > I, YOU, SOMEONE, PEOPLE, SOMETHING/THING, BODY > > I: mi > YOU: do > SOMEONE: lo pa prenu > PEOPLE: lo prenu > SOMETHING/THING: lo pa dacti > BODY: lo pa xadni > > It is not clear to me whether SOMETHING/THING > is meant to be > as restricted as {lo pa dacti} or as general as > {da/de/di}. > > Determiners: > THIS, THE SAME, OTHER > > THIS: Nothing strictly equivalent, but {vi} as > in {lo vi broda} comes closest. > THE SAME: {mintu} (but not really a determiner) > OTHER: {drata} (but not really a determiner) > > Quantifiers: > ONE, TWO, SOME, ALL, MANY/MUCH > > ONE: pa > TWO: re > SOME: su'o > ALL: ro > MANY/MUCH: so'i / pi so'i > > Evaluators: > GOOD, BAD > > GOOD: xamgu (zabna) > BAD: xlali (mabla) > > ( I think zabna/mabla should be the primes in > Lojban, but xamgu/xlali > are the direct translations.) > > Descriptors: > BIG, SMALL > > BIG: barda > SMALL: cmalu > > Intensifier: > VERY: mutce > > Mental predicates: > THINK, KNOW, WANT, FEEL, SEE, HEAR > > THINK: pensi/jinvi > KNOW: djuno/se slabu > WANT: djica > FEEL: cinmo/ganse > SEE: viska > HEAR: tirna > > (It's hard to decide without context which one > she sees as the prime > meaning in the cases of THINK, KNOW and FEEL.) > > Speech: > SAY, WORDS, TRUE > > SAY: cusku > WORDS: valsi > TRUE: jetnu > > Actions, events, movement, contact: > DO, HAPPEN, MOVE, TOUCH > > DO: zukte > HAPPEN: fasnu > MOVE: muvdu > TOUCH: pencu > > (although {muvdu} only works for change in > location, not for movement > in general) > > Existence and possession: > THERE IS / EXIST, HAVE > > These don't have any accurate Lojban > equivalents. > It depends too much on the context. > > Life and death: > LIVE, DIE > > LIVE: jmive > DIE: mrobi'o > > (Notice that DIE is not a primitive in Lojban.) > > Time: > WHEN/TIME, NOW, BEFORE, AFTER, A LONG TIME, A > SHORT TIME, > FOR SOME TIME, MOMENT > > WHEN/TIME: ca > NOW: nau/ca ({nau} includes "here", {ca} is > more general) > BEFORE: pu > AFTER: ba > A LONG TIME: ze'u/zu (depending on whether it's > a duration or a displacement) > A SHORT TIME: ze'i/zi > FOR SOME TIME: ze'a > MOMENT: mokca (more or less) > > Space: > WHERE/PLACE, HERE, ABOVE, BELOW; FAR, NEAR; > SIDE, INSIDE; TOUCHING > > WHERE/PLACE: bu'u (although many Lojbanists use > {vi}) > HERE: nau (Also {ti}, {vi} depending on > context.) > ABOVE: ga'u > BELOW: na'i > FAR: vu > NEAR: vi > SIDE: te'e/ze'o/ne'a > INSIDE: ne'i > TOUCHING: re'o > > "Logical" concepts: > NOT, MAYBE, CAN, BECAUSE, IF > > NOT: na > MAYBE: ju'o cu'i > CAN: ka'e / kakne > BECAUSE: ki'u / ri'a / mu'i / ni'i > IF: ganai... gi..., but with lots of warnings > > Augmentor: > VERY, MORE > > VERY: mutce > MORE: zmadu > > Taxonomy, partonomy: > KIND OF, PART OF > > KIND OF: klesi > PART OF: pagbu > > Similarity: > LIKE: simsa > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to > http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to > secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.