From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Mar 20 07:12:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65283 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2006 15:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Mar 2006 15:12:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2006 15:12:39 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLM3K-0006Eq-Qk for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:12:15 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLM2V-0006DD-Oo; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:11:24 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLM21-0006CF-Ni for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:10:53 -0800 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FLM20-0006C5-KA for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:10:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 21343 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Mar 2006 15:10:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20060320151051.21341.qmail@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.183.14] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:10:51 PST Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:10:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17560603200620p545c9378td765419f5bcda51c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11177 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: semantic primes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=1JgsedMIzRz9wWLywzIAlEXtzVBzbCxb5_TMiA2Ja4uhkYDkNw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25586 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 3/20/06, John E Clifford > wrote: > > All the hypothetical cases "if someone were > > looking toward the mountain, then the ball > would > > be on the tree's right" and so on. > > That would be: > > le bolci cu drani le tricu lo catlu be le > cmana {pritu} not {drani}, i.e., wrong right. But this does not solve the problem since it is either false or nonsense in the situation described: there is not, ex hypothesi, such a thing as lo catlu be le cmana. Now, we can make {pritu3} opaque, but that does not seem right, as that would seem to require only abstractions here or else it would be unmarked, which is inappropriate for a logical language. Actually, on second thought, requiring an abstraction (an event or a property perhaps) doesn't sound too bad, certainly better than an unmarked opaque (although Lojban still has a few, mainly from mistaken place structures from subject raising). > > There is > > apparently no such person and yet the > location is > > clear. > > Yes. > > (As long as you assume that the someone is on > the same side > of the mountain as the ball and the tree, which > would be a natural > assumption. You can of course be more precise > if need be, at the > expense of more wordiness.) > Yes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.