From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Mar 18 10:24:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26558 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2006 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Mar 2006 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Mar 2006 18:24:25 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FKg6B-0003cP-Ch for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:24:23 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FKg5g-0003bQ-4W; Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:55 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FKg5E-0003b0-PW for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:24 -0800 Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.118]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FKg5D-0003ar-HP for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 22085 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Mar 2006 18:23:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20060318182322.22083.qmail@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.183.14] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:22 PST Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:23:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17560603180823m5e01a1celc0e7beacde4aea08@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11168 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: semantic primes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=38AnSXLoKenRtBl59d-gk_vCXsx3jVqL56HZVUoA6fRpGkt3lw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25577 Yes, I know what make good frames of reference in this case, but the question is how to say it. {mi} is not a frame of reference, it is a person. The frame of reference has to be something like "from my point of view" or so and then the issue is how to say it. Maybe we can assume that the frame of reference is always a person looking some way and collapse the whole to the person (as you seem to suggest) and assume he is looking the way he in fact is, but that seems to me to miss a lot of cases. How are they to be expressed? --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 3/17/06, John E Clifford > wrote: > > I think it is important to stress the "in > frame > > of reference" version of x3, especially if > the > > "facing" version is creating problems. But > how > > do we say a frame of reference? > > Typical frames of reference in x3 could be: > > -The very positional reference in x2, if it is > something > with an intrinsic right side, such as a person. > ("ri" will > often get to it) > -The speaker ("mi"). > -The audience ("do"). > -Some significant bystander. > -A generic, unambiguously oriented person, e.g. > "someone looking south" ("lo catlu be lo > snanu"). > -Anything else around with an intrinsic right > side. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to > http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to > secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.