From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Apr 11 06:25:35 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FTIrp-0006Pg-4y for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:25:13 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FTIrl-0006PX-CG for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:25:12 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n29so1066207nzf for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:25:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YuzFFE3GjpE1D6SUMyipNbYEY87j3i2T+a2zQMXXCG806GQe5gaDjuFxSsX/y/tUpCkYfsP+E3frfuPWVXsjd7d4NaMJoOkXKt4F9A+yeRzh1ORGS5/gs9WxzUlQ3Z04uLh1v4YWgQIvIY80aOT5eqs7mq5Pt81cmWB0Dk8Zpg4= Received: by 10.36.222.30 with SMTP id u30mr1787439nzg; Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.20.62 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:24:38 -0400 From: "Matt Arnold" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: [nues@chello.at: Sapir-Whorf] In-Reply-To: <443BAA59.9000608@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060409222936.GA26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <443BAA59.9000608@lojban.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11320 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list This information is probably what we should send to Nils Schiffer. May I? -Matt On 4/11/06, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > Matt Arnold wrote: > > I presume we are agreed that there is no program of research in place > > to study Saphir/Whorf effects on Lojban-speakers. I would say that the > > effect can't be measured until it becomes a living language, and we > > are now only on the cusp of that. > > -Matt > > There were ideas for a research program outlined back in JL6 or JL7 (as > well as an entire chapter in the 4th edition of JCB's book, which is on > the loglan.org website, but I found JCB's proposal to be dreadfully flawed). > > There is research that could be done on Lojban and the SWH, but it > wouldn't be the sort of thing that would give any conclusive answer, > just suggest whether there really are effects. > > Some degree of informal research based on my research ideas are > possible, but would prove nothing because informal research couldn't > produce a fruitful number of subjects and control the variables > sufficiently. It might inspire others. But I've never had enough > serious Lojban students in one place for enough time to try to stretch > my idea into practice. > > Any serious research would require grant money, which requires serious > linguists to be interested, and it would require that LLG and Lojban > have proved itself to be linguistically interesting in the first place > (and since linguists are somewhat biased against SWH research because of > its sloppy "popular" aspect, interest needs to be whetted carefully). > People like Nick Nicholas and Ivan Derzhanski, who have reference Lojban > in professional papers, improve this possibility. We probably have > sufficiently lived down JCB's politically disastrous attempts to get NSF > funding in the 1970s, but I would not have anyone attempt to make > another proposal unless they were credentialed in the field and had some > experience writing proposals for the intended audience. > > In other countries, where the politics and funding of linguistics > research may be considerably different than in the US, something may be > possible. > > I also think a research program focused on the psychological aspects of > SWH in terms I described in that old JL issue of "creativity" or > "emotional expressiveness" (two areas where I think true SWH could be > detected if Lojban use has such effects), could lead to funded research > in that field that could lead through the back door back to > linguistically acceptable SWH research (i.e. my impression is that > psychological research is more willing to explore new ideas than > linguists are). But serious psychological research would still take > grant money and an interested credentialed person to lead the grant and > ensure that any research plan is up to the standards of the field. And > unlike linguists, we don't have any psychology researchers in the > community to my knowledge. > > Recalling where you are located, Matt, several years ago I intrigued > Alexis Manaster-Ramer, a noted UofM linguistics professor in some > research applications for Lojban - not SWH. No idea if he still > remembers us - I'm sure I have the correspondence somewhere on my > computer (I helped him on his Nostratic proto-language research). He'd > be one of the people I would start with if I were trying again to stir > up some interest in research in the linguistics community - but I don't > even know if he is still at UofM. > > lojbab > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.