Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30001 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2006 16:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2006 16:09:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 2006 16:09:13 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FSyww-00085T-6p for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:09:10 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FSyvX-00083z-Mn; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:45 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FSyv8-00083l-7I for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:18 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.207]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FSyv5-00083e-5i for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:18 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n29so880221nzf for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.220.55 with SMTP id s55mr631052nzg; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.37.20.62 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:07:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20060409222028.GZ26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1886_19125008.1144685231448" References: <20060407182417.GM26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20060409222028.GZ26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-archive-position: 11316 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Matt Arnold" From: "Matt Arnold" Reply-To: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: [steph_corvisier@yahoo.fr: Question sur le langue universelle neutre] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=2ylXjn0LZggjubZ0bqYIqobbQtT8oH2ekMj1EAoTJmOOfe4qtQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25728 Content-Length: 10733 Lines: 210 ------=_Part_1886_19125008.1144685231448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Stephane, Thank you for writing to us. Merci de l'inscription nous. We do not speak French, but we were able to use Altavista's Babelfish program to translate your letter: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Nous ne parlons pas fran=E7ais, mais nous pouvions employer le programme de Babelfi= sh d'Altavista pour traduire votre lettre : http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Here are my answers to your questions: Voici mes r=E9ponses =E0 vos ques= tions : 1 Is it useful to found an international language? 1 Est-il utile d'instaurer une langue internationale ? It's probably not useful to found an international auxiliary language. Il n'est pas utile =E0 a trouv=E9 probablement une langue auxiliaire internationale. Lojban speakers seldom have an interest in this, although they are welcome to. Ceux qui parlent Lojban ont rarement un int=E9r=EAt en cela, bien qu'e= lles soient bienvenues =E0. It might be nice if delegates were to speak Esperanto in the proceedings of the United Nations, but the populations of the world's nations will not be interested in learning an auxiliary language. Il pourrait =EAtre gentil si les d=E9l=E9gu=E9s devaient parler l'esp=E9ranto dans les d=E9marches des n= ations unies, mais les populations des nations du monde ne seront pas int=E9ress= =E9es =E0 apprendre une langue auxiliaire. I recommend this website about "When do people learn languages?" Je recommande ce site Web au sujet de "quand ils apprennent des langues?" Specifically read the section titled "The Language Problem." http://www.zompist.com/whylang.html Lisez sp=E9cifiquement la section intitul=E9e "le probl=E8me de langue." http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&langpair=3D= en%7Cfr&u=3Dhttp://www.zompist.com/whylang.html&prev=3D/language_tools There is not much of a language problem. Il n'y a pas beaucoup d'un probl=E8me de langue. 2 Which organization can have legitimacy to make unspecified decisions on the introduction of an international language? 2 Quel organisme peut-il avoir la l=E9gitimit=E9 de prendre quelconques d=E9cisions sur l'instauration d'une langue internationale ? There is no institution with the authority to decide global language changes, and such an institution is unlikely to ever exist. Il n'y a aucun =E9tablissement avec l'autorit=E9 pour d=E9cider les changements globaux de langue, et il est peu susceptible exister jamais un tel =E9tablissement. 3 Does it have to be a natural or built language? 3 Doit-elle =EAtre un= e langue naturelle ou construite ? Were an international auxiliary language to be established, it would be unfair if it were to be a natural language, because then whose would it be? Est-ce que une langue auxiliaire internationale =E9taient-elles =E0 =E9tablir, il serait injuste si elle devaient =EAtre un langage naturel, pa= rce que puis dont il serait ? 4 Does it have to take for base an already existing language or to be created by itself? 4 Doit-elle prendre pour base une langue d=E9j=E0 existante ou se cr=E9er par elle-m=EAme ? Rather than basing an international auxiliary language on a natural language, it would be preferable to start from scratch. Plut=F4t que de bas= er une langue auxiliaire internationale sur un langage naturel, il serait pr=E9f=E9rable au d=E9but =E0 partir de z=E9ro. Unfortunately, instead of being equally familiar to everyone, the resulting language would be equally strange to everyone. Malheureusement, au lieu d'=EAtre =E9galement bien connue =E0 chacun, la langue r=E9sultante serait = =E9galement =E9trange =E0 chacun. Lojban was created with cultural neutrality in mind and that is what resulted. Lojban a =E9t=E9 cr=E9=E9 avec la neutralit=E9 culturelle =E0 l'= esprit et c'est ce qui a r=E9sult=E9. 5 Does it have to be one second language or to supplant the mother tongue? = 5 Doit-elle =EAtre une seconde langue ou supplanter la langue maternelle ? Were a universal language to be established, it would have to be a second language. =C9taient une langue universelle =E0 =E9tablir, il devrait =EAtre= une deuxi=E8me langue. Individuals must choose freely for themselves, and they will have much affection for their mother tongue. Les individus doivent choisir librement pour eux-m=EAmes, et ils auront beaucoup d'affection pour leur langue maternelle. The only way to supplant a language is to use threats of violent force to surpress them, which would be morally wrong. La seule mani=E8re de supplant= er une langue est d'employer des menaces de la force violente aux surpress ils= , qui seraient moralement erron=E9s. Thank you again for writing. Merci encore de l'=E9criture. Cordially, Cordialement, Matt Arnold ------=_Part_1886_19125008.1144685231448 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Stephane,

Thank you for writing to us. Merci de l'inscription nous. =

We do not speak French, but we were able to use Altavista's Babelfi= sh program to translate your letter: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ Nous ne parlons pas fran=E7ais, mais no= us pouvions employer le programme de Babelfish d'Altavista pour traduire vo= tre lettre : http://babelfish.a= ltavista.com/

Here are my answers to your questions:    V= oici mes r=E9ponses =E0 vos questions :

1 Is it useful to found an i= nternational language?  1 Est-il utile d'instaurer  &nb= sp; une langue internationale ?

It's probably not useful to fou= nd an international auxiliary language.  Il n'est pas utile =E0 a= trouv=E9 probablement une langue auxiliaire internationale.=20

Lojban speakers seldom have an interest in this, although they are = welcome to.  Ceux qui parlent Lojban ont rarement un int=E9r=EAt en ce= la, bien qu'elles soient bienvenues =E0.

It might be nice if delegat= es were to speak Esperanto in the proceedings of the United Nations, but th= e populations of the world's nations will not be interested in learning an = auxiliary language.  Il pourrait =EAtre gentil si les d=E9l=E9gu= =E9s devaient parler l'esp=E9ranto dans les d=E9marches des nations unies, = mais les populations des nations du monde ne seront pas int=E9ress=E9es =E0= apprendre une langue auxiliaire.

I recommend this website about "When do people learn languages= ?" Je recommande ce site Web au sujet de "quand ils apprennent de= s langues?"

Specifically read the section titled "The Lang= uage Problem."=20 http://www.zompist.com/whyl= ang.html Lisez sp=E9cifiquement la section intitul=E9e "le probl= =E8me de langue." http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&= ;langpair=3Den%7Cfr&u=3Dhttp://www.zompist.com/whylang.html&prev=3D= /language_tools

There is not much of a language problem. &n= bsp;Il n'y a pas beaucoup d'un probl=E8me de langue.

2 Which organization can have legitimacy to make unspecified decisi= ons on the introduction of an international language?  2 Quel org= anisme peut-il    avoir la l=E9gitimit=E9 de prendre qu= elconques d=E9cisions sur l'instauration    d'une langu= e internationale ?

There is no institution with the authority to decide global languag= e changes, and such an institution is unlikely to ever exist.  Il= n'y a aucun =E9tablissement avec l'autorit=E9 pour d=E9cider les changemen= ts globaux de langue, et il est peu susceptible exister jamais un tel =E9ta= blissement.

3 Does it have to be a natural or built language?  3 Doit= -elle =EAtre    une langue naturelle ou construite ?
Were an international auxiliary language to be established, it would b= e unfair if it were to be a natural language, because then whose would it b= e?  Est-ce que une langue auxiliaire internationale =E9taient-ell= es =E0 =E9tablir, il serait injuste si elle devaient =EAtre un langage natu= rel, parce que puis dont il serait ?

4 Does it have to take for base an already existing language or to = be created by itself?  4 Doit-elle prendre    = ;pour base une langue d=E9j=E0 existante ou se cr=E9er par elle-m=EAme ?
Rather than basing an international auxiliary language on a natural la= nguage, it would be preferable to start from scratch. Plut=F4t que de baser= une langue auxiliaire internationale sur un langage naturel, il serait pr= =E9f=E9rable au d=E9but =E0 partir de z=E9ro.=20

Unfortunately, instead of being equally familiar to everyone, the r= esulting language would be equally strange to everyone. Malheureusement, au= lieu d'=EAtre =E9galement bien connue =E0 chacun, la langue r=E9sultante s= erait =E9galement =E9trange =E0 chacun.

Lojban was created with cultural neutrality in mind and that is wha= t resulted.  Lojban a =E9t=E9 cr=E9=E9 avec la neutralit=E9 cultu= relle =E0 l'esprit et c'est ce qui a r=E9sult=E9.

5 Does it have to= be one second language or to supplant the mother tongue? 5 Doit-elle =EAtr= e    une seconde langue ou supplanter la langue materne= lle ?

Were a universal language to be established, it would have to be a = second language. =C9taient une langue universelle =E0 =E9tablir, il devrait= =EAtre une deuxi=E8me langue.

Individuals must choose freely for t= hemselves, and they will have much affection for their mother tongue. Les i= ndividus doivent choisir librement pour eux-m=EAmes, et ils auront beaucoup= d'affection pour leur langue maternelle.

The only way to supplant a language is to use threats of violent fo= rce to surpress them, which would be morally wrong. La seule mani=E8re de s= upplanter une langue est d'employer des menaces de la force violente aux su= rpress ils, qui seraient moralement erron=E9s.

Thank you again for writing. Merci encore de l'=E9criture.

C= ordially, Cordialement,
Matt Arnold


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