Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:56:01 -0700
Message-ID: <20060411145601.GH26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org>
Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org
References: <20060409222936.GA26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <e6663d200604101245l68cdc6b2g9def01f0d7dfe29a@mail.gmail.com> <443BAA59.9000608@lojban.org> <e6663d200604110624y6435ef96ufed67d6465ef4085@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <e6663d200604110624y6435ef96ufed67d6465ef4085@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060126
Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
From: Robin Lee Powell <lojban-out@lojban.org>
Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: [nues@chello.at: Sapir-Whorf]
Content-Length: 4621
Lines: 98

Absolutely.

-Robin

On Tue, Apr 11, 2006 at 09:24:38AM -0400, Matt Arnold wrote:
> This information is probably what we should send to Nils Schiffer. May I?
> -Matt
> 
> On 4/11/06, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> > Matt Arnold wrote:
> > > I presume we are agreed that there is no program of research in place
> > > to study Saphir/Whorf effects on Lojban-speakers. I would say that the
> > > effect can't be measured until it becomes a living language, and we
> > > are now only on the cusp of that.
> > > -Matt
> >
> > There were ideas for a research program outlined back in JL6 or JL7 (as
> > well as an entire chapter in the 4th edition of JCB's book, which is on
> > the loglan.org website, but I found JCB's proposal to be dreadfully flawed).
> >
> > There is research that could be done on Lojban and the SWH, but it
> > wouldn't be the sort of thing that would give any conclusive answer,
> > just suggest whether there really are effects.
> >
> > Some degree of informal research based on my research ideas are
> > possible, but would prove nothing because informal research couldn't
> > produce a fruitful number of subjects and control the variables
> > sufficiently.  It might inspire others.  But I've never had enough
> > serious Lojban students in one place for enough time to try to stretch
> > my idea into practice.
> >
> > Any serious research would require grant money, which requires serious
> > linguists to be interested, and it would require that LLG and Lojban
> > have proved itself to be linguistically interesting in the first place
> > (and since linguists are somewhat biased against SWH research because of
> > its sloppy "popular" aspect, interest needs to be whetted carefully).
> > People like Nick Nicholas and Ivan Derzhanski, who have reference Lojban
> > in professional papers, improve this possibility.  We probably have
> > sufficiently lived down JCB's politically disastrous attempts to get NSF
> > funding in the 1970s, but I would not have anyone attempt to make
> > another proposal unless they were credentialed in the field and had some
> > experience writing proposals for the intended audience.
> >
> > In other countries, where the politics and funding of linguistics
> > research may be considerably different than in the US, something may be
> > possible.
> >
> > I also think a research program focused on the psychological aspects of
> > SWH in terms I described in that old JL issue of "creativity" or
> > "emotional expressiveness" (two areas where I think true SWH could be
> > detected if Lojban use has such effects), could lead to funded research
> > in that field that could lead through the back door back to
> > linguistically acceptable SWH research (i.e. my impression is that
> > psychological research is more willing to explore new ideas than
> > linguists are).  But serious psychological research would still take
> > grant money and an interested credentialed person to lead the grant and
> > ensure that any research plan is up to the standards of the field.  And
> > unlike linguists, we don't have any psychology researchers in the
> > community to my knowledge.
> >
> > Recalling where you are located, Matt, several years ago I intrigued
> > Alexis Manaster-Ramer, a noted UofM linguistics professor in some
> > research applications for Lojban - not SWH.  No idea if he still
> > remembers us - I'm sure I have the correspondence somewhere on my
> > computer (I helped him on his Nostratic proto-language research).  He'd
> > be one of the people I would start with if I were trying again to stir
> > up some interest in research in the linguistics community - but I don't
> > even know if he is still at UofM.
> >
> > lojbab
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
> 

-- 
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/
Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!"
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.