Message-ID: <e6663d200604110624y6435ef96ufed67d6465ef4085@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:24:38 -0400
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References: <20060409222936.GA26378@chain.digitalkingdom.org>
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From: "Matt Arnold" <lojban-out@lojban.org>
Reply-To: matt.mattarn@gmail.com
Subject: [lojban] Re: [nues@chello.at: Sapir-Whorf]
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This information is probably what we should send to Nils Schiffer. May I?
-Matt

On 4/11/06, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> Matt Arnold wrote:
> > I presume we are agreed that there is no program of research in place
> > to study Saphir/Whorf effects on Lojban-speakers. I would say that the
> > effect can't be measured until it becomes a living language, and we
> > are now only on the cusp of that.
> > -Matt
>
> There were ideas for a research program outlined back in JL6 or JL7 (as
> well as an entire chapter in the 4th edition of JCB's book, which is on
> the loglan.org website, but I found JCB's proposal to be dreadfully flawed).
>
> There is research that could be done on Lojban and the SWH, but it
> wouldn't be the sort of thing that would give any conclusive answer,
> just suggest whether there really are effects.
>
> Some degree of informal research based on my research ideas are
> possible, but would prove nothing because informal research couldn't
> produce a fruitful number of subjects and control the variables
> sufficiently.  It might inspire others.  But I've never had enough
> serious Lojban students in one place for enough time to try to stretch
> my idea into practice.
>
> Any serious research would require grant money, which requires serious
> linguists to be interested, and it would require that LLG and Lojban
> have proved itself to be linguistically interesting in the first place
> (and since linguists are somewhat biased against SWH research because of
> its sloppy "popular" aspect, interest needs to be whetted carefully).
> People like Nick Nicholas and Ivan Derzhanski, who have reference Lojban
> in professional papers, improve this possibility.  We probably have
> sufficiently lived down JCB's politically disastrous attempts to get NSF
> funding in the 1970s, but I would not have anyone attempt to make
> another proposal unless they were credentialed in the field and had some
> experience writing proposals for the intended audience.
>
> In other countries, where the politics and funding of linguistics
> research may be considerably different than in the US, something may be
> possible.
>
> I also think a research program focused on the psychological aspects of
> SWH in terms I described in that old JL issue of "creativity" or
> "emotional expressiveness" (two areas where I think true SWH could be
> detected if Lojban use has such effects), could lead to funded research
> in that field that could lead through the back door back to
> linguistically acceptable SWH research (i.e. my impression is that
> psychological research is more willing to explore new ideas than
> linguists are).  But serious psychological research would still take
> grant money and an interested credentialed person to lead the grant and
> ensure that any research plan is up to the standards of the field.  And
> unlike linguists, we don't have any psychology researchers in the
> community to my knowledge.
>
> Recalling where you are located, Matt, several years ago I intrigued
> Alexis Manaster-Ramer, a noted UofM linguistics professor in some
> research applications for Lojban - not SWH.  No idea if he still
> remembers us - I'm sure I have the correspondence somewhere on my
> computer (I helped him on his Nostratic proto-language research).  He'd
> be one of the people I would start with if I were trying again to stir
> up some interest in research in the linguistics community - but I don't
> even know if he is still at UofM.
>
> lojbab
>
>
>
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