From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu May 04 16:43:22 2006
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61)	(envelope-from <nobody@digitalkingdom.org>)	id 1FbnTL-00032O-AP	for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:03 -0700
Received: from web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.127])	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.61)	(envelope-from <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>)	id 1FbnTJ-000321-1p	for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:03 -0700
Received: (qmail 29325 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2006 23:42:59 -0000
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;  s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net;  h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding;  b=BPcjmhcrrVLzuY+NDGcL09fPalgX9oyBuLY/SnhXbD+iku5XLxsnQAH+zQ45L9bS1bLTv9UL0miNg2FLTMASwPksvVwQGLLFjh+EpSlihzibUnBJu37ksrT11S7Qv82a6O9BTAAeA1YXomTqqYoar1xJXpba8dVMGAnDW5gUhMU=  ;
Message-ID: <20060504234259.29323.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Received: from [70.230.152.10] by web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:42:59 PDT
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [lojban] Re: ralju bangu be le gligu'e
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <925d17560605041114m56cf182dof36a68d6197c81e9@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
X-archive-position: 11377
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org
X-list: lojban-list

To answer the last (and central) question first:
{bridi} like logic assumes that the structure of
a bridi is (ignoring some irrelevant details)
[selbri]<sumti>, in the instant case [ralju
bangu]<le gligu'e>.  The Lojban grammar has it
ralju [bangu <le gligu'e>], which does not
translate conveniently into the logical form.  It
is, of course, a possible logical form, but a
derivative one (it assumes the first form, note).
 Yet it is the unmarked form here and the basic
form is marked by a complex set of parentheses.
Whether this derivative form matches the meaning
depends upon what the meaning is, and it is not
clearly the one this form eventually matches.

--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/4/06, John E Clifford
> <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Grammatically, however (in Lojban,
> > that is -- in Logic the form matches the
> > meaning), it asks for the principal one(s)
> among
> > the languages of the  English land.
> 
> In Lojban the form matches the meaning, at
> least in this case. The relevant
> part of the grammar is:
> 
> selbri <- tanru-unit+
> tanru-unit <- tanru-unit-2 linkargs?
> tanru-unit-2 <- BRIVLA  / KE selbri KEhE / ...
> linkargs <- BE term (BEI term)* BEhO?
> 
> i.e. the linked arguments are absorbed by a
> tanru unit before it can
> modify or be modified by another tanru unit. So
> I don't see any
> mismatches between form and meaning here.
> 
> >  In this
> > case, it is fair to assume that the referent
> is
> > going to be the same, but obviously this will
> not
> > always be the case.
> 
> Both orders are expressable in Lojban:
> 
> lo ralju (bangu be le gligu'e)
> lo (ke ralju bangu ke'e) be le gligu'e
> 
> > And much of the discussion
> > in CLL seems (it is often hard to be sure) to
> say
> > that it is the logical meaning that is
> intended
> > when there is doubt  -- to the dismay of
> anyone
> > trying to write a semantics of the language.
> 
> There can be no doubt in this case though.
> 
> > (Note that the definition of {bridi} is
> already
> > at variance with the grammar here.)
> 
> How so?
> 
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to
> http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to
> secretary@lojban.org for help.
> 
> 



To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.