From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu May 04 17:33:11 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 May 2006 17:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FboFY-00042P-0Z for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 17:32:52 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.237]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FboFW-00042G-2M for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 17:32:51 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i13so499867wra for ; Thu, 04 May 2006 17:32:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WCfVupS+voGtaRJIQG5y/87yjIlZ7257l5eYSCPgUZ/eFhrLzUPyHWLolnqzDSxICKDgZlqqL5V/B0mf5tT2WDviLhB3H+xqUB7gX6Bb9mZhMdp+E9gldvhs1e7Vz0F3Dux4wsDMCppY9UnUXWFEqEKqtYLrkMdH2UQEv9kA9R0= Received: by 10.54.117.1 with SMTP id p1mr226187wrc; Thu, 04 May 2006 17:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.126.18 with HTTP; Thu, 4 May 2006 17:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605041732mbf111b5i9eb7342feac25a89@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 21:32:48 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: ralju bangu be le gligu'e In-Reply-To: <20060504234259.29323.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605041114m56cf182dof36a68d6197c81e9@mail.gmail.com> <20060504234259.29323.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11379 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/4/06, John E Clifford wrote: > To answer the last (and central) question first: > {bridi} like logic assumes that the structure of > a bridi is (ignoring some irrelevant details) > [selbri], in the instant case [ralju > bangu]. But {ralju bangu be le gligu'e} is a selbri, not generally a bridi. The Lojban grammar has it > ralju [bangu ], which does not > translate conveniently into the logical form. How does the "logical form" deal with tanru? Because this is only about how one tanru-unit modifies another. Consider for example the tanru {broda be ko'a broda be ko'e}, where the tanru-unit {broda be ko'a} modifies the tanru-unit {broda be ko'e}. Would it make more sense for it to parse as {((broda be ko'a) brode) be ko'e}? The grammar might have been defined that way, but it wasn't (and I suspect it would be more complicated doing it that way). But neither is more logical than the other. Similarly {broda brode brodi} was arbitrarily defined as {(broda brode) brodi} but that's neither more nor less logical than if it had been defined as {broda (brode brodi)} In fact, I suspect the latter would have been more convenient. But how do you get one being more "logical"? It > is, of course, a possible logical form, but a > derivative one (it assumes the first form, note). I don't see it. How is one more or less derivative than the other? > Yet it is the unmarked form here and the basic > form is marked by a complex set of parentheses. The parentheses are only needed if you want to link a sumti to a compound selbri, they are not needed for simple selbri. That would seem to be at least as "logical" as the other way, and more symmetric if we consider that the modifier tanru-unit can have its own arguments too. > Whether this derivative form matches the meaning > depends upon what the meaning is, and it is not > clearly the one this form eventually matches. Not sure what you mean by that, but the meaning of the Lojban structure does in this case match its form as defined by the grammar. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.