From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed May 10 18:10:33 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 10 May 2006 18:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fdzh1-0005iB-Cu for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:10:15 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fdzgy-0005i3-62 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:10:15 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so56863nzf for ; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:10:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aC50CG37hpkeTXDKtcrmNF7aKHWt46OWDlAANDo4CYvQC54JNZnygJ9Crc3yUm+WgXUxAS2d8xDGv1IkPwHk6JDcPDTZQOm2HitIpsTSp/XEP9MNuEeEG4G//nP5T7Dar+m93gCJfjJjhrSbK/xlWCGuCCsrWn3AOP3rFHlxm3w= Received: by 10.36.96.15 with SMTP id t15mr307439nzb; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:10:10 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <925d17560605101754ibf2c8k435cb516bfee8b32@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605091911q49d9049fk74d621c05ae2a62f@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605100646o576097b7n1eb81fa3d7c681df@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101536r3efb57c0re1125ff3301a3403@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101635x1702203cu13e8397e3ee956ea@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101754ibf2c8k435cb516bfee8b32@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11475 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/10/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/10/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > No, I see no difference. If you make this inner "all" open to > > interpretation, > > It is not "all" that is open to interpretation, it is "bear" (or whatever > the predicate). The set of things that satisfy a given predicate > relevantly depends on the context of the utterance. > So you're talking about verificity? I thought that we had put this aside. > > then you have no way to be absolutely specific > > regarding meaning "all ever", or ("all bears ever who are climbers of > > this *pats a tree* ever, within 5 minutes backwards and forwards of > > right... now.") > > Yes, you can do it in the same or a similar way as you are doing it > in English here, by adding more clarifying words. The {sai} or {cai} > I proposed plays a similar role to the "ever" in the English "all ever". > It is usually not necessary, but it can help you convey a difference. > {sai} or {cai} aren't a solution, they're a hack that ... well, for the purposes of this discussion, make it hard for me to give you a sensible example. But one still exists that completery breaks the two: we have two favorite cubs, out of a litter of 5, in a group-owned-by-us of 10, and they're all playing with some other cubs, in a large group. And I suddenly start talking to you about "all bears" (however wrong I may be). For all you know, I may be talking about the two cubs (your {ro}), the litter (uh, {ro sai}), our bears (...{ro cai}?), the bears in the forest that surround us, the bears in the country that we're in, whatever. Point being, there could me more than 3 contexts that are a lot more sensible than "all bears". I mean, given the nature of talking about all bears, there's /usually/ more than 3 contexts that are more applicable than it. But I want to talk about all bears. I'm trying to start a philosophical discussion or whatever. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.