From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed May 10 18:26:53 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 10 May 2006 18:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fdzwp-0005tA-5M for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:26:35 -0700 Received: from mx.211.ru ([193.238.131.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fdzwj-0005sx-Tx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 10 May 2006 18:26:34 -0700 Received: from localhost (mx.211.ru [193.238.131.194]) by mx.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639B4EBC5E for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:26:28 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from mx.211.ru ([193.238.131.194]) by localhost (mx.211.ru [193.238.131.194]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 68070-02 for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:26:24 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from mail.211.ru (mail [10.5.1.2]) by mx.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9516DEBC53 for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:26:24 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from host-102-2-129.211.ru (host-102-2-129.211.ru [10.102.2.129]) by mail.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174995C15 for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 08:26:23 +0700 (NOVST) Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:26:21 +0700 From: Yanis Batura X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.30) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9710079907.20060511082621@mail.ru> To: Bob LeChevalier Subject: [lojban] Everyday Lojban In-Reply-To: <44624EEA.4000606@lojban.org> References: <20060508152918.17862.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <366115241.20060509075751@mail.ru> <446039DA.40909@gmail.com> <4460B11A.6000300@lojban.org> <4461AE88.8080205@gmail.com> <44624EEA.4000606@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------F5CE205381C1BE6" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 11476 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ybatura@mail.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------------F5CE205381C1BE6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11.05.2006, 3:36, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > The percentage of the small Lojban community that actually will read > something longer than a pageful of Lojban is small in the first place. > So the market for even one long translation is probably in the dozens at > most, and probably longer. > More importantly, the time spent in doing even a mediocre translation is > several times as much as the time spent reading it and > a) the number of people who are competent to translate a given text to > any arbitrary degree of skill is significantly smaller than the number > who are sufficiently competent to try to read the resulting level of > text (assuming that the results are readable at all) > b) the number of people who are both competent and willing to translate > texts of book length in a timeframe shorter than many months or even > years are vanishingly small > c) probably by the time you finished a mediocre translation of a novel, > your Lojban skills would be sufficiently improved that you want to throw > it out and start over, realizing just how bad you were when you started. > I think Nick Nicholas suffered from this effect, even with much shorter > translations. > d) the time that any potential translator spends on said long book takes > time away from all other Lojbanic activities, including reading what > others are writing, which reduces the market for the translations that > are done and chokes the community by denying others the time spent on > short term activities that are more interactive. And arguably, anyone > competent enough to translate a novel into Lojban should be being > co-opted into the byfy work (that is my own excuse - I cannot justify > spending my too-limited Lojban time on even a short translation while > the byfy work is stagnating and I haven't done anything on it in a long > time) 1. Matt Arnold has once suggested to translate "The Prophet" in the wiki. While this idea was fine, the style of the book itself, as someone has put it in jboselkei, was "exhausting", and I hardly believe any newbies will ever be reading it in Lojban. 2. However, several hard nuts (I mean difficult sentences) from the "Prophet"'s text got to jboselkei and were successfully translated. 3. There are many posts in jboselkei that due to the presence of American slang and specific local humor, which is obscure to other people, are very difficult to translate. Taking all this and Mr. LeChevalier's information into account, I ga'inai suggest to combine the power of the wiki with the community approach used in jboselkei for creation of a reader for beginners (Alex Martini's idea, by the way): "EVERYDAY LOJBAN" 1. A set of everyday dialogues in English and Lojban 2. English and Lojban in these must be very simple, to not scare away Lojban newbies or non-native English speakers. 3. The form of dialogues will be like in "The Prophet": tables with two columns, one for English, one for Lojban translation. Example: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Prophet%3A+The+Coming+of+the+Ship&bl 4. It will be being created on wiki pages. 5. Difficult-to-translate sentences will be posted in jboselkei. PLUSES: 1. This will be the definite place for the beginners to start to improve their Lojban. 2. These dialogues will be interesting for everyone. 3. Since this will be done in wiki, the process of translation will be much more rewarding for the translators, they won't have to disappear from the Lojban community for 12 years for translating the first chapter of "War and Peace". Translating in wiki will be almost real-time. MINUSES: Do you see any? WHAT WILL BE DIFFICULT Actually, nothing. Just composing these dialogues in simple English, maybe. Your ideas? mi'e .ianis. --------------------- Lojban: A Language With *Intelligent* Design ------------F5CE205381C1BE6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 11.05.2006, 3:36, Bob LeChevalier wrote:


> The percentage of the small Lojban community that actually will read

> something longer than a pageful of Lojban is small in the first place.

> So the market for even one long translation is probably in the dozens at

> most, and probably longer.


> More importantly, the time spent in doing even a mediocre translation is

> several times as much as the time spent reading it and


> a) the number of people who are competent to translate a given text to

> any arbitrary degree of skill is significantly smaller than the number

> who are sufficiently competent to try to read the resulting level of

> text (assuming that the results are readable at all)

> b) the number of people who are both competent and willing to translate

> texts of book length in a timeframe shorter than many months or even

> years are vanishingly small

> c) probably by the time you finished a mediocre translation of a novel,

> your Lojban skills would be sufficiently improved that you want to throw

> it out and start over, realizing just how bad you were when you started.

> I think Nick Nicholas suffered from this effect, even with much shorter

> translations.

> d) the time that any potential translator spends on said long book takes

> time away from all other Lojbanic activities, including reading what

> others are writing, which reduces the market for the translations that

> are done and chokes the community by denying others the time spent on

> short term activities that are more interactive.  And arguably, anyone

> competent enough to translate a novel into Lojban should be being 

> co-opted into the byfy work (that is my own excuse - I cannot justify

> spending my too-limited Lojban time on even a short translation while

> the byfy work is stagnating and I haven't done anything on it in a long

> time)



1. Matt Arnold has once suggested to translate "The Prophet" in the wiki. While this idea was fine, the style of the book itself, as someone has put it in jboselkei, was "exhausting", and I hardly believe any newbies will ever be reading it in Lojban.

2. However, several hard nuts (I mean difficult sentences) from the "Prophet"'s text got to jboselkei and were successfully translated.

3. There are many posts in jboselkei that due to the presence of American slang and specific local humor, which is obscure to other people, are very difficult to translate.


Taking all this and Mr. LeChevalier's information into account, I ga'inai suggest to combine the power of the wiki with the community approach used in jboselkei for creation of a reader for beginners (Alex Martini's idea, by the way):


"EVERYDAY LOJBAN"

1. A set of everyday dialogues in English and Lojban

2. English and Lojban in these must be very simple, to not scare away Lojban newbies or non-native English speakers.

3. The form of dialogues will be like in "The Prophet": tables with two columns, one for English, one for Lojban translation.

Example: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Prophet%3A+The+Coming+of+the+Ship&bl

4. It will be being created on wiki pages.

5. Difficult-to-translate sentences will be posted in jboselkei.


PLUSES:

1. This will be the definite place for the beginners to start to improve their Lojban.

2. These dialogues will be interesting for everyone.

3. Since this will be done in wiki, the process of translation will be much more rewarding for the translators, they won't have to disappear from the Lojban community for 12 years for translating the first chapter of "War and Peace". Translating in wiki will be almost real-time.


MINUSES:

Do you see any?


WHAT WILL BE DIFFICULT

Actually, nothing. Just composing these dialogues in simple English, maybe.



Your ideas?




mi'e .ianis.


---------------------

Lojban: A Language With *Intelligent* Design

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