From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 12 17:15:33 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fehms-0007QR-P9 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:14 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.207]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fehmp-0007QI-OT for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:14 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n1so545401nzf for ; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qIr1iazknxSq+4PtwF7qdEmI69oxkTgOAe6aBkNSUbq3SUTCHfue9lp9fJObRwszjQetOjgSOQGhQxSle1Vv48nI3DY5Q6QtQ8t9ogP2k1tFqIfitI4DekufP/MW3aFJgJTGQOznS7mzgKvVS3QeY71M0B897NToiccRRrOLvtU= Received: by 10.36.7.11 with SMTP id 11mr3281242nzg; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:15:10 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <925d17560605121704y72a68ee6u9cd709c3cc8b1409@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605111709w1198a046n52838e84ee0fcc1c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605111827s5c1ee336u524d2a08555bd739@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605120641y12e1cfb7ydb80fad3d465bb1a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121557l1341cd6dn57fab88b8c956e80@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121704y72a68ee6u9cd709c3cc8b1409@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11526 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/12/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/12/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > I never said that I want to refer to "all bears" unconstrained by > > anything, in fact I've stated that this would usually be the wrong > > thing to do - but that shouldn't mean that one can't do it. No, the > > utility of my inner {ro} is much more obvious when taken in the > > context of the "all bears in the cage" example (which is an "actual" > > example, and which you seem to have ignored), where the referant is > > constrained by something more than "that which is a bear" (e.g. "that > > which is a bear, and that which is in /that/ cage"). > > That would be {lo ro cribe poi nenri le va selri'u}. It would probably > not include bears that were before or will be later in the cage (although > I can imagine contexts that would make those relevant, as in "all bears > in that cage always end up getting sick, there must be something wrong > with it"). Much less likely would it be that it includes imaginary bears that > are in the cage, though again it would be possible to force it with some > strong context: "Imagine that that cage is full of bears. Now imagine that > all the bears in that cage suddenly turn into monkeys...." I don't think > an expression that in every possible circumstance includes all those > bears would be particularly useful. > What if the relevant bears that we've been talking about for the last hour are some specific 20 bears, 2 of which are in the cage? (You strongly suspect that there are more than these 2 bears in the cage.) {__ ro cribe poi nenri le va selri'u} would say "all of the (those 20 relevant) bears that are in the cage (there are 2)" - but it doesn't say what I want to say - all of the bears in the cage, whatever number there is in there, context aside. The utility of my inner {ro} would be that the listener wouldn't need to consider context (like those 20 relevant bears), nor be confused by it where it works against what the speaker is saying (like when I want to talk about all and potentially not-currently-relevant bears that are in the cage). Also, what is the difference between your {L_ cribe}, and your {L_ ro cribe}? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.