From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue May 30 07:08:08 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 30 May 2006 07:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fl4su-0007Md-Rx for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:07:49 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fl4sr-0007MV-CO for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:07:48 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 4so671144nzn for ; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:07:44 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iMeAw8oJOjfkkJG4GgKSgIGNVeuxMDI3FHwc6ItKaH7B+h+gPZCPyGRTM0+T3ehdQIjsvY6HsDGAw5zhtw/OQpw5HsRj0R4IKgS8wEIlt+1KKsAYom2bEZ7t7Y9xMnmRkVJODSvSgCqkk/Huj2fiaafa1syjsxAwc9AAkFtDLeE= Received: by 10.65.103.15 with SMTP id f15mr1763500qbm; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.19 with HTTP; Tue, 30 May 2006 07:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605300707y79d20b95nd621ac89c5e17215@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:07:42 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605290655h478dc1c5rbf85df7e0e7312cf@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605291351i15f1def0ocb0e163cb7a6143c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605291521s64cb0a2as821eea86d63839b8@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605291805y7f216d65v33b13eb6741ffda6@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11697 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/30/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > This has to do with grammatical aspects. For example, I might start > reading a book, pause halfway through, and then resume and complete > reading the book. Now, if you were to start reading the book, pause, > hand it over to me, and I resumed and completed reading it, we would > say that we read the book "together (3b)". Only if we read it to each other, right? If I read half the book to myself, then you come into the room and I leave, and you read the second part of the book, we probably wouldn't say "we read the book together". > (7.2) 25 students stand on 25 marks, leave, and then another 25 to > stand on the other marks. Together (3b), the students surround the > building. > > (7.3) Two students stands on 25 marks for 10 seconds per mark. > Together (3b), the students surround the building. > > There's clearly something amiss with (7.2) and (7.3). Right, in those cases at no point in time would the building be surrounded by students. > (7.5) A piece of graphite exists, and a hollow piece of wood exists. > Together (3b), they are a pencil. It is perfectly sensible to say "a piece of graphite and a graphite tube constitute a pencil together", but in order for them to constitute a pencil together it is not enough that each of them exists, they must also be arranged in a certain way. Similarly for the students around the building, it is not enough that they occupy some space for them to surround the building, they must occupy the space at the same time for the surrounding to take place. > What is a composite entity, or "mass"? It is something whereby all its > component parts complete a piece of the pie (if you will). I am a > human; together (3b) my heart, lungs, bones, brain, consciousness, > [etc.] complete parts of "human". None does the job on its own, but > the job is completed (a composite entity exists) through their > combined efforts. > > (As I've noted before, most if not all things are masses/composites.) Yes and no. A human body can be thought of as a composite of organs, but we (or at least I) don't normally think of it that way, I think of it as one thing. I would never say "my organs are lying on this bed" when I mean that my body is. Not even "my organs are lying on the bed together". I suspect you would not argue for {lei mi rango cu vreta le vi ckana} either. A body is not just a mass of organs. > Where did you find a copy of the book? > > http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ISBN=0199278148 > > states that the release date is July. Is it available elsewhere? The whole thing (at least in draft form) used to be online a couple of years ago, when we were discussing this on the BPFK forum. > Upon further reading, > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plural-quant/ > and many other sources of "plural quantification/predication" seem to > talk of the sort of plural quantification that we have in Lojban - > that is, inner/outer quantifiers. Outer quantifiers, as I understand them, are always singular (i.e. distributive) quantification. Lojban doesn't strictly have plural quantifiers, only plural reference. >The "singularist viewpoint" that > they target seems to be the requirement of first order logic to split > something like "the apple and orange were on the table" into two > sentences, and the ensuing inability to cope with reciprocality. I > could be wrong, since I didn't read it in sufficient detail, but this > sort of "singularism" seems to have little to do with the > "singularism" that you identify my viewpoint as supporting. I would be > grateful if you could direct me to some material (perhaps a > subsection) that discusses your "singularism" specifically. The key difference between singular and plural quantification is this: In singular quantification, variables can only take one value at a time. (Each student at a time, or the mass of students as a single entity, for example) In plural quantification, variables can take more than one value at once. (All the students at once, for example.) I think the first paragraph of the wikipedia article describes it reasonably well. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.