From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu May 11 13:09:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52646 invoked from network); 11 May 2006 20:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 May 2006 20:08:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 May 2006 20:08:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeHSV-0000VQ-Na for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:08:27 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeHRE-0000UR-BA; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:07:11 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeHQn-0000UB-7f for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:41 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeHQj-0000U3-Eo for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:41 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so260808nzf for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.96.15 with SMTP id t15mr735162nzb; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Thu, 11 May 2006 13:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:06:35 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560605110956u4dd0b662xffdce093966219b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605101536r3efb57c0re1125ff3301a3403@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101635x1702203cu13e8397e3ee956ea@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101754ibf2c8k435cb516bfee8b32@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101920o84917e4t99c4dc0b2b9d9b6c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605110956u4dd0b662xffdce093966219b6@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11495 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=a8AU8pnaAh90oBZHAvAo3R_q6dciNqHMByhp_H15ZmU9Bhw7Pw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25912 On 5/11/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/10/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > I don't understand the implications of "It is not "all" that is open > > to interpretation, it is "bear" ". > > Once you figure out what counts as a bear in a given discourse, "all bears" > is clear, it's all the things that count as bears. The more difficult task from > the point of view of interpretation is figuring out what is being counted as > a bear. > Ah, yes, I see what you're saying. I agree that the latter may be difficult, but my current point is that referring to all bears (ever) is currently being made needlessly difficult. > > No, I didn't mention any of these bears. They're simply there. We were > > sitting in silence. Suddenly, I speak up with {__ ro cribe} (with sai > > or without). Which "all bears" am I talking about? > > My guess would probably depend on what you said about them. > I can't give you a context-free answer, I don't think there is one. > Consider this dialogue: > > A: Please take everything out of that box. Use a blank inner quantifier. > B: Sorry, I can't do that, there are many things that are not in the box. > And even if you would want me to put them there first so I can take them > out, there are many things that just won't fit in the box. If A used inner {ro} (my definition) to refer not just to "all bears" but to "all everything" (unrestricted), then frankly, B is doing a good job of smacking A around for A's indiscretion. > A: Very funny. Please take everything that's in that box out of it, then. At this point, A would say "whoops". Then, he'd probably omit the inner {ro}, because this is clearly a case where a blank inner is better. Of course he could rephrase: {lo ro tutci poi [within this box {nau}]...} "Please take all instruments that are in that box out of it". > B: The thing is, the box is not very well sealed, and even if it was, not > even the most powerful vaccuum pump available would allow me to take > each and every molecule out of it. Not to mention muons and stuff. > A: Never mind, I'll do it myself. > > How do you analyze it? > > > How would you say "let's talk about all bears that have ever existed"? > > Something like: > > e'u mi'o casnu lo ro cribe poi pu ja ca zasti > Not by your rules. Here you are inviting me to talk, out of the bears that are in context, of the ones that have existed and exist. This is clearly inconsistent. When does {__ ro} refer to all bears? When someone includes the word zasti after a poi? When all bears in context clearly already exist? "Aha, clearly he's not talking about all bears already in context, because I thought that they all exist... wait, was he talking about more than existing bears then"? And what if all bears in context don't exist now-before, and I want to suggest talking of the ones that do? Do the rules of Lojban change based on the context (all bears in context meet restrictions = new context, if they don't = modification of current context)? > > > I don't understand what you're getting at here. I'm not planning to > > correct the context, I just want to start talking about all bears, > > regardless of the many interpretations of "all bears". > > Then use {lo ro cribe}, that refers to all bears. > By your definition, this means "all" in context (or "all in context", I really can't tell the difference). > Here are some examples I just got from Googling "all bears": > > "Because all bears love honey, Luna and Mica eagerly participate in > the research." > "All bears, whether meat-eating or vegetarian, have the teeth of a ... " > "All bears have relatively short life spans — living only about 25 or 30 years." > "All bears share a similar anatomy, but individual species vary in > size, diet, ... " > "All bears are opportunistic in locating food, so black bears were > often found ... " > "All bears are made from the finest German mohair and are fully > jointed. ... All bears are hand sewn from the best mohair and fabrics > available." > "Being the largest of all bears and land carnivores, the polar bear > can measure up to ..." > "The cutest of all bears wrapped in a cozy blanket. The perfect gift > for any newborn baby boy." > "All bears killed by people, including emergency kills, illegal kills, > ... must be accounted for under the quota" > > In most of these cases the referent of "all bears" seems to be kinds. That Kinds? (The only thing popping into my head is "of species x2") > should be covered by {lo ro cribe}, since a kind of bear is an appropriate > thing to put in the x1 of {cribe}. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.