From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed May 17 19:02:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24888 invoked from network); 18 May 2006 02:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2006 02:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2006 02:02:54 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgXqk-0003Uj-RK for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 17 May 2006 19:02:50 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgXoz-0003KS-M8; Wed, 17 May 2006 19:01:03 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 17 May 2006 19:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgXnv-0003Ft-Ay for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 17 May 2006 18:59:55 -0700 Received: from mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net ([69.17.117.8]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgXnt-0003Fi-AT for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 17 May 2006 18:59:55 -0700 Received: (qmail 9256 invoked from network); 18 May 2006 01:59:52 -0000 Received: from at.ropine.com (HELO [192.168.1.56]) (sethg@[66.92.76.238]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 May 2006 01:59:52 -0000 Message-ID: <446BD515.2090209@ropine.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:59:49 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4463F513.7060207@ropine.com> <4464E7EE.8000104@ropine.com> <4469F299.7030102@ropine.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11597 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sethg@ropine.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Seth Gordon From: Seth Gordon Reply-To: sethg@ropine.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=HZizOdSoYARQFP22osYX00NQQx7ietFDTwjieNbHFU1COjWpHg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26015 > You had said: > > {lo ro cribe cu morsi}, and be understood as saying that all the bears > *in this museum* are dead. > > and now you said: > > {lo cribe cu morsi} as meaning that the museum had all dead bears > > I don't see these as different. What I said, in the second case, was >> In a museum, I might assume that either the museum had all live bears or >> all dead bears, and so I would interpret {lo cribe cu morsi} as meaning >> the latter. Note (a) my use of "might", and (b) how my interpretation is based on my assumptions about how museums operate, and not on anything inherent in Lojban grammar. >> On the other hand, if I was hiking in the woods of Lojbanistan and my >> native guide said {lo cribe cu morsi}, I would *not* assume that he was >> saying that *all* the bears in these woods were dead. > > And if he said {lo ro cribe cu morsi} you would assume that all bears > in this forest were dead? Well, if the native guide said "the bears > are dead", and there were no bears apparent to me or him, and we were > talking about the forest, I would assume that he meant that the bears > in the forest were dead. But since {lo} is defined as taking no default quantifer, {lo cribe cu morsi} would be an accurate translation of "there is a dead bear" as well as "the bears are dead". Another example: if I were working the night desk at the Ramada Inn of Lojbanistan, and a guest told me {lo morsi cu zvati le mi ckana}, I would translate that as "there is a dead body on my bed [or perhaps more than one]", not "all the dead bodies in this hotel are on my bed". To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.