From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri May 12 21:00:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9040 invoked from network); 13 May 2006 04:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 May 2006 04:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 May 2006 04:00:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FelIs-0004EQ-Md for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 12 May 2006 21:00:30 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FelHp-0004Ax-IJ; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:59:30 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 May 2006 20:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FelHO-0004Ad-3D for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:58:58 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.206]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FelHL-0004AR-0S for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:58:57 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so538382nzf for ; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.222.36 with SMTP id u36mr143788nzg; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 20:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:58:54 -0600 In-Reply-To: <31B16AD5-6DCF-4083-9CC1-495AD2409B6D@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605121557l1341cd6dn57fab88b8c956e80@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121704y72a68ee6u9cd709c3cc8b1409@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121743p2fec3c21o6296fb8db5fdb87e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121850q38d49a3qaae649a9f6012e2b@mail.gmail.com> <31B16AD5-6DCF-4083-9CC1-495AD2409B6D@umich.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11534 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=DbP3XF4LIHt4Sw6N78wf05YWOCdmtG0k5ulUKRK806gVx-k2Eg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25951 On 5/12/06, Alex Martini wrote: > > [ li'o ] > > Consider: I've been talking to a zookeeper about 20 certain bears for > > the past hour, and in fact, I'm in the middle of a sentence regarding > > them just as we get to a somewhat filthy cage/habitat, in which I see > > 2 of those 20 bears. I say "take all the bears in the cage to the > > infirmary for a checkup, right now". The zookeeper takes the two bears > > out of the cage, and begins shutting the door. I stop him, and say > > "take ALL the bears in the cage to the infirmary for a checkup". Is > > the difference in meaning, and the utility of that difference > > apparent? I hope that it is. This is the difference between position 1 > > and 2, and it's essential in, to give one example, contractual > > writing. But really, it's useful anywhere that you want to explicitly > > state what you mean, without having the listener guess based on > > context (without having context get in the way of clear > > communication). > > > [ li'o ] > > Now you've got me confused -- what other bears do you include in "ALL > the bears in the cage"? You clearly don't mean all 20 that you were The 2 of 20 relevant bears, and also any other bears-such-that-are-in-that-cage, that may be hiding in the foilage or what have you. > talking about, those would be "all the bears in *the cages*". Yes, Well, I may be holding one of those 20 bears in my arms (a tiny bear cub), and some other of them may have been released into the wild a week ago. But this is a minor detail. > the plural distinction isn't made in Lojban, but English does > distinguish so this matters here. Do you refer to {all the bears who > are in this cage, and those who were in this cage}? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.