From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu May 04 16:48:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82317 invoked from network); 4 May 2006 23:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2006 23:45:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2006 23:45:18 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FbnVR-00034Y-Dz for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:45:13 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FbnTo-00032Y-6k; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:33 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FbnTL-00032O-AP for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:03 -0700 Received: from web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FbnTJ-000321-1p for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:03 -0700 Received: (qmail 29325 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2006 23:42:59 -0000 Message-ID: <20060504234259.29323.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.152.10] by web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 May 2006 16:42:59 PDT Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:42:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560605041114m56cf182dof36a68d6197c81e9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11377 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: ralju bangu be le gligu'e X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=HBEo7BACNS9hVkb5oK7DPpO5zRjNNxJMjmbOprEEQSwKCQxL9g X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25794 To answer the last (and central) question first: {bridi} like logic assumes that the structure of a bridi is (ignoring some irrelevant details) [selbri], in the instant case [ralju bangu]. The Lojban grammar has it ralju [bangu ], which does not translate conveniently into the logical form. It is, of course, a possible logical form, but a derivative one (it assumes the first form, note). Yet it is the unmarked form here and the basic form is marked by a complex set of parentheses. Whether this derivative form matches the meaning depends upon what the meaning is, and it is not clearly the one this form eventually matches. --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/4/06, John E Clifford > wrote: > > Grammatically, however (in Lojban, > > that is -- in Logic the form matches the > > meaning), it asks for the principal one(s) > among > > the languages of the English land. > > In Lojban the form matches the meaning, at > least in this case. The relevant > part of the grammar is: > > selbri <- tanru-unit+ > tanru-unit <- tanru-unit-2 linkargs? > tanru-unit-2 <- BRIVLA / KE selbri KEhE / ... > linkargs <- BE term (BEI term)* BEhO? > > i.e. the linked arguments are absorbed by a > tanru unit before it can > modify or be modified by another tanru unit. So > I don't see any > mismatches between form and meaning here. > > > In this > > case, it is fair to assume that the referent > is > > going to be the same, but obviously this will > not > > always be the case. > > Both orders are expressable in Lojban: > > lo ralju (bangu be le gligu'e) > lo (ke ralju bangu ke'e) be le gligu'e > > > And much of the discussion > > in CLL seems (it is often hard to be sure) to > say > > that it is the logical meaning that is > intended > > when there is doubt -- to the dismay of > anyone > > trying to write a semantics of the language. > > There can be no doubt in this case though. > > > (Note that the definition of {bridi} is > already > > at variance with the grammar here.) > > How so? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to > http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to > secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.