From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue May 16 07:40:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43170 invoked from network); 16 May 2006 14:40:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2006 14:40:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2006 14:40:44 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fg0cD-0007Hd-2d for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:33:37 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fg0az-0007Gb-9i; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:32:23 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 16 May 2006 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fg0aY-0007Fy-10 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:31:54 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.234]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fg0aV-0007Fq-3d for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:31:53 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i12so261079wra for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.108.6 with SMTP id g6mr1165119wrc; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.126.17 with HTTP; Tue, 16 May 2006 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:31:48 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060515151914.71142.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6E2013CF-9EFF-4A1A-8427-8869A781516E@umich.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11562 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=PJKDtfMqFb0qlETsXFjq5sBW6NzxYFvOR4uevtNK-74w7XH-XQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25980 On 5/15/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > 1: Can a speaker actually restrict down to what their referant is? > (i.e. "make a complete restriction"?) > 2a: Is it important to be able to make complete restrictions? > 2b: Is there something that the current model doesn't handle well that > is handled by the proposed usage? > 3: Is there room within the current model for the proposed usage? I would add a couple more questions prior to those: -1: Is there a complete, universal, fixed set of referents valid for any utterance and context, such that any given utterance will always pick its referents from that set (with suitable restrictions)? 0: Assuming we have a referent (either picked from the context-free universal set hypothesized in -1, or in some other context dependent way), is there always a context-free answer to whether a given referent satisfies a given predicate? As an illustration of (0), in the setting that started this thread, when we say "all stones on the table", does "on the table" include stones that are on the board but not directly on the table? Is it even relevant to make the distinction given the context? Does "on the table" include a stone that may be stacked on top of another stone which is on the table? Is it even relevant to ask that question? Do we need to define {cpana} in such a way that for every single context, the answer to whether a stone on the board counts as being "on the table" is always the same, independent of the context? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.