From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri May 05 18:31:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98231 invoked from network); 6 May 2006 01:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 May 2006 01:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 May 2006 01:31:05 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FcBdQ-00060w-2q for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:31:04 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FcBco-000601-OK; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:30:29 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 May 2006 18:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FcBcL-0005zA-Du for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:29:57 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.225]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FcBcI-0005z3-S4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:29:57 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i34so658803wra for ; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.188.14 with SMTP id q14mr68309qbp; Fri, 05 May 2006 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.218.2 with HTTP; Fri, 5 May 2006 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 19:29:53 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560605051745m294b69c7m645ccc5cf61d037f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060505125724.6757.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560605051356y14c8bc45xf602f0e8189b1d5e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605051745m294b69c7m645ccc5cf61d037f@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11404 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=uMml5tybMjQdqX-GOEf-ngPXgYWU2kdkn6138aEu7rvDzPB7zg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 25820 On 5/5/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/5/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > On 5/5/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > Used before a noun, and generally stressed, to emphasize one of a group > > > or type as the most outstanding or prominent: considered Lake Shore Drive > > > to be the neighborhood to live in these days. > > > > > > No, {le} won't do for that. > > > > Neither would {lo}, correct? > > Right. I don't really know how to get quite the same effect. {ba'e} won't > do either. I suppose one has to rely on an explicit predicate: > {jinvi lo du'u la leik cor draiv cu ralju lo jarbu lo ka se xabju kei ca lo > cabna} or something. I guess that it's whatever Lojban structure is used to express the difference between "the cat ran to the HOUSE", "the cat RAN to the house", and "the CAT ran to the house", as they are used in English. > > {lo pa} or {le pa} could both work. > > I should have said {lo ro pa} actually. In any case, uniqueness does not > seem to be something that one actually needs to indicate very often. I agree that it's not very necessary. {lo ro pa} looks interesting. > > {lo nobli turni (la uels...)} > > would be in reference to the actual prince of wales. > > {be la uels}. Thankyou. > > If > > I had a pet chimp, I could happily refer to him as {le nobli turni (la > > uels...)}, "the prince of wales has destroyed the curtains yet again". > > If I had a pet chimp and I was delusional, and thought that he was the > > actual prince of wales, I would refer to him using {lo nobli turni (la > > uels...)}. > > If the chimp's name was "prince of wales", or if that was a frequent > nickname you use for him, {la} would be better. (No, I didn't mean it to be a nickname) > Otherwise, > I'm not sure I see how it would work for a nonce use. But if you think > the description will be helpful for your audience, yes, why not. > It is perfectly possible to use {le nobli turni be la uels} for the real > Prince of Wales, since it is a particular, specified nobli turni be > la uels, and that would be the first interpretation that comes to mind > in the absence of context to the contrary. What's {lo nobli turni be la uels} ? > > > > Used before a noun specifying a field of endeavor: the law; the film industry; > > > > the stage. > > > > > > No, plain {lo} is better. > > > > {loi}, if we're talking about laws, stages, or film industries as a > > mass. "Join the film industry" = "[you, {ko}] participate in (the mass > > of all things that are the film industry)". "The law is on my side" = > > "(that which is the mass of all things that are laws) is on my side". > > {lo} is always a good substitute for {loi}. If {loi} did not exist, I wouldn't > miss it. This is perhaps my point. I theorize that the proper intent of {loi} vs {lo} has been shifted into {lo} vs {le}. My {loi} is your {lo}, and my {lo} is your {le}. You seem to have no place for your {loi}. If the difference between your {lo cribe} and your {loi cribe} are very few, if not nonexistent, then I think that this indicates that this theory is on the right track. My definitions: lo - {lo labno} - "the wolf ran away" (specific wolf) loi - {loi labno} - "wolves face extinction" (general wolf) (aka "the wolf faces extinction") lo'e - {lo'e labno} - "the wolf eats meat" (typical wolf) where le/lei/le'e are the "what I'm calling a" equivalents, which allows for something like my chimp example. Your definitions: le - {le labno} - "the wolf ran away" (specific wolf) + "what I'm calling a" lo - {lo labno} - "wolves faces extinction" (general wolf) lei - ? loi - ? le'e - ? lo'e - ? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.