From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon May 29 13:53:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51040 invoked from network); 29 May 2006 20:53:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 May 2006 20:53:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 May 2006 20:53:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fkojc-0002Dx-1s for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:53:08 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fkoip-0002DK-Ol; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:52:23 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 29 May 2006 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FkoiO-0002CD-NA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:51:52 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.196]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FkoiL-0002C5-8F for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:51:52 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 4so540571nzn for ; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.43.12 with SMTP id v12mr1298956qbj; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.19 with HTTP; Mon, 29 May 2006 13:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605291351i15f1def0ocb0e163cb7a6143c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:51:48 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605271658m1056888dm5385d20dc29df6db@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605271918x535ab3dre73d854264c1549d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605280905u63d61d78k73da849a8d7856f1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605290655h478dc1c5rbf85df7e0e7312cf@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11691 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=qzxrrv2nb71MfdhxAa_FiI__d1R-5YVrn5wnW4Q9rLOlWahI2A X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26110 On 5/29/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > Avoiding the word "mass"/"crowd" when you say "the students" does not > mean that "the students" does not refer to a group of students. It > does. That's the singularist view, yes. But it is not the only possible view. > Show me how and what "the students" refers to. In the pluralist view, it does not refer to one thing. It refers to many things, i.e. the many students. > Additionally, I don't think that Lojban uses this mistaken concept of > "plural predication": it seems that the book that describes it has not > been published yet, and so Lojban predates it by about 20 years. That may be true. Is your argument then that conservatism requires that we stick with the singularist view? (CLL does concede that pronouns at least can refer to "individuals" or "masses" depending on context, so even there one can find, at least in embryonic form, the pluralist view.) > Then what surrounds the building? Please give an explanation, > hopefully a detailed one, as opposed to a vague 2-word answer. I'm afraid nothing further I might add will change your mind. Luckily for you, and for anyone else who prefers the singularist view, nothing in Lojban prevents you from putting that view into practice. If you are consistent with your view you simply won't apply a distributive and a non-distributive predicate to the same sumti, you will always have to split your bridis in two in such cases. This may make some things more cumbersome to express, and I see nothing gained by it, but it's always doable. > This brings us right back to: > > 2) You can't use {lo danlu cu bajra gi'e blabi} to refer to a white > dog and running cats, Right, because the animals that are running are not the same animals that are white. In the case of the students, the people that are wearing the hats are the same people that are surrounding the building. If they were not the same people you could not use one sumti for both predications. > and so you can't use {[L_ muno tadni] cu [dasni > lo mapku] gi'e [sruri le dinju]} to refer to a number of students and > to a mass composed of students. Right, because the mass is not the students, so if you only allow singular reference, you can refer either to the one mass of students or to each one student individually. But if you allow plural reference, then it is the very same students who wear the hats and surround the building. In this case, the two predicates are predicated of the _same_ referents, and so you can use one sumti to refer to them. > A mass of students is, whether it's > convenient or not, a different entity than what each one of the > students is. Indeed. > There is no way to refer both to "mass composed of X" and > "X" at the same time (there is no superclass). I agree. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.