From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun May 21 17:44:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73037 invoked from network); 22 May 2006 00:44:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2006 00:44:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2006 00:44:56 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhyXW-0006cn-Ic for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:44:54 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhyVF-0006aB-MH; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:35 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhyUp-0006Zf-GY for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:07 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhyUn-0006ZU-GN for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:07 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id f1so1051273nzc for ; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.135.6 with SMTP id i6mr5317331nzd; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Sun, 21 May 2006 17:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 18:42:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <370394AC-290A-404D-BEC7-5466A31BC3C2@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605190915l4c6a5017o5cae14790fb38b3b@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605200715t32c87d1dpf95ffb3023c95526@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605201618u41770ed9ob343bbe248e22606@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605210914u7d4863b7qbf4a28a5fe3e72ee@mail.gmail.com> <370394AC-290A-404D-BEC7-5466A31BC3C2@umich.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11650 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=4tPuBMMsxqzNzNwoBYyaC_GTImrxGnFWR0KVXtThvte3jO6b1Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26068 On 5/21/06, Alex Martini wrote: > > On May 21, 2006, at 6:19 PM, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > [ li'o ] > > > >> > >> > > > > mi pu viska lo pixra skina i lo ro cribe pe ri cu > >> dasni lo mapku > >> > > > > "I saw a cartoon. All bears in it wore hats." > >> > > > >> > > mi pu klama lo dalpanka i lo ro cribe pe ri cu dasni lo > >> mapku > >> > > "I went to a zoo. All bears in it wore hats." > >> > > > >> > Yes, zasti-typeness is figured out from context. {pe} is, after > >> all, > >> > highly context-based, and so are, usually, ti/ta/tu and friends. > >> ´ > >> {pe ri} = {poi ke'a srana ri}. It is not more context-based than > >> other > > > > In what way do they pertain to the cartoon? What are you really > > saying? There are many ways that something can pertain to something > > else. If I'm a runner, I in some way pertain to the path I run on. > > What you're saying here is that the bears pertain to the cartoon, yes, > > but what they really are is "existing within the perceptual universe > > of the cartoon". Knowing that it's this and not some other type of > > "pertains" relies heavily on context. > > > >> restrictive clauses. The point here is that depending on what the > >> restriction is, the unrestricted set is changed. In one case it > >> includes non-existent bears and in the other it doesn't. > >> > > As I understand it, {le cribe pe lo pixra skina} could also refer to > bears who produced the cartoon, or possibly bears to whom the cartoon > was shown, or other suech scenarios. It doesn't make much sense in > the terms of bears, but it would be more plausable for something like > {le nanmu pe lo pixra skina}. Indeed. It could also mean that the bears starred in the cartoon, that the cartoon was based on them, that they once walked along a path that the artist of the cartoon also walked along as a boy - perhaps {ckini} would be the proper corresponding gismu for {pe}? {srana} seems to mean "x1 is about/based on the existence of x2", or "x1 is of interest in some way to the understanding of x2". 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