From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue May 23 14:25:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64930 invoked from network); 23 May 2006 21:25:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 May 2006 21:25:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 May 2006 21:25:24 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FieNM-0003Kw-Rv for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:25:13 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FieIH-00036k-Pl; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:20:00 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FieHq-00036a-1O for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:30 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FieHn-00036R-SI for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:29 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id f1so1499196nzc for ; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.227.8 with SMTP id z8mr6621254nzg; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Tue, 23 May 2006 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:19:26 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560605230610r25b3f886tbaa964838a659d74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605221615gd0fcb7fj4c97cd7a9275a1b2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605221708q3d88efe8teddf51b3f0e1103c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605221736p1d02db31sb154ed5cc4d0e793@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605221856w7c5703b4p9ec1d1b296e67093@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605230610r25b3f886tbaa964838a659d74@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11668 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=SAaSJ84sWPXU9LqQnHbdszY7aOi9RRbxqA3SvcFsFMuQIxIOUA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26087 On 5/23/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/23/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > du'emei = x1 is a set with too many members x2 > > I think that was the original place structure of {mei}, then it was > changed to: > > mei [ mem mei ] cardinal selbri > convert number to cardinality selbri; > x1 is the mass formed from set x2 with member(s) x3 > [x1 is a mass with N components x3 composing set x2; > x2 is an n-tuple (x2 is completely specified) (= selmei for reordered places); > x1 forms an n-some; x3 (not necessarily a complete enumeration) are > [among the] members of x2]; (cf. cmima, gunma, cmavo list moi) > > In my opinion, the original was better, with "set" understood in a > non-technical sense. > > > x1 being {lo ro mapku} > > > > Why is {lo ro mapku} being converted into a set, while {ro lo mapku} isn't? > > I don't ever use sets, so even when the gi'uste suggests/imposes that a > place must be filled only with a set (it happens to not be the case this time, > but even if was the case), I just ignore it. My reason for doing this > is that sets > don't add anything interesting, and they can quite complicate things. > > {lo ro mapku} refers to all hats, but it says nothing about distributivity of > any predicate that applies to them. {loi ro mapku} indicates explicitly that > all hats satisfy the place together/collectively. {ro lo ro mapku} > says explicitly > that each of all hats fits the place by itself. > I still don't see why ro lo mapku cu melbi gi'e ku'i du'e mei do'e lo nu mi bevri (ku'i ro lo mapku du'emei do'e lo nu mi bevri) wouldn't work if lo ro... does. I also don't see how you can be converting it into a mass automatically. x1 is the mass formed from set x2 with member(s) x3 If {ro L_ ci mapku} was placed in x1, I would take it to mean that each hat was a mass individually. You'd need a {lu'o} or something of the sort. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.