From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Jun 03 18:49:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97753 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2006 01:48:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2006 01:48:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2006 01:48:15 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fmhil-0004Rf-Tc for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:48:04 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fmhh2-0004Qr-Mi; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:46:17 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmhgZ-0004QN-BA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:45:47 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmhgX-0004QG-H7 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:45:47 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j40so886320ugd for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.216.6 with SMTP id o6mr2128958ugg; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 18:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.255.6 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 18:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:45:43 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560606031815w3179c445tc9b750f97931f114@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060603162029.74094.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560606031507u3caf439fof06571b7b02e3e6d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606031815w3179c445tc9b750f97931f114@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-archive-position: 11721 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=sAhrf-jKO0Jno6XH_g4Hen6sBLJ1CBdfeMU3vxsZYnF2aiY2PA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26141 On 6/3/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 6/3/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > Are the relationships "26 students surround the building" and "26 > > students wear hats" different in any way? > > Yes, in the first case the predicate, "surround the building" is applied > collectively, and in the second case the predicate "wear hats" is applied > distributively. > Uh, yeah. In the first one, it is applied "bunch-together", and in the second it is applied "bunch-individually". What's the difference between the two? Offer an explanation that highlights the difference between the two, and not just a different way to name these things. > > There is a distinct > > difference between how "26 students" is used in the former, and how it > > is used in the latter (even if the referent is the same), yes? > > No, "26 students" refers in both cases to 26 students and it is only used > for that, in both cases to refer to those 26 students. > No, it *refers* to the 26 students in the same way (by your reckoning), but it is *used* differently. It is absurd to suggest that "26 students" is *used* in the exact same way in both "...surrounded the building" and "...wore hats". In "...wore hats", it is used in a way that means that Alice herself wore a hat. In "...surrounded the building", it is used in a way that means Alice...? One answer is that she was a component of the mass that surrounded the building - this is my answer. The other answer (that you offered) was that she was the referent of the 26 students that surround the building. This doesn't explain anything, because she's also a referent of the 26 students that wore hats. (It's like trying to explain the difference between a cat and dog by calling one an animal.) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.