From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jun 02 06:29:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77760 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2006 13:29:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2006 13:29:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2006 13:29:32 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fm9fP-0005T9-OI for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:26:19 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fm9dx-0005Rm-Jh; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:50 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fm9dW-0005RY-BT for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:22 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fm9dT-0005RR-UU for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:22 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 4so513404nzn for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.137.9 with SMTP id p9mr1527770qbn; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 06:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.19 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 06:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560606020624g2755230cv1d0598ba8bac944c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:24:17 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605310741g384f22b1k5b91aba8173006cd@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605311649w51e71fc5r26c9b71da03e94f3@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606010658xf47ef5t42fd427c4d5cfbb9@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606011742qd6ea6d1h9d95a01eba08c383@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11708 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=NXb5CYU9TJvcEQGXGVrfivSt4asjbuaD1WY4RnfVcUE_erU63g X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26128 On 6/2/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > {lo su'u tadni} is not something that can surround buildings or carry > > pianos or wear hats. > > Why not? It can be *anything* that context suggests might be appropriate It's a relationship abstraction. {su'u} takes a full bridi and converts it into a selbri. {su'u tadni} means {su'u zo'e tadni zo'e}, it does not select the x1 of tadni, the students, but the relationship between students and subject of study. That relationship is not the kind of thing that surrounds buildings or wears hats. > > Not that I know what it is, but it's something > > along the lines of "studying", like {lo nu tadni}, {lo ka tadni}, or > > {lo du'u tadni}, > > If it was something along the lines of those other abstracters, you'd > use them instead. I don't use {su'u} because I don't really know what it means, but I do know some things it cannot mean, and selecting students in any kind of groupings is one of those things. > > {le tadni} has 26 referents. This is independent of what you then predicate > > about them. > > Ok, your {le tadni} *might* have 26 referents, or it might have 1 (a > surrounder of the building), we don't know which and must decide based > on context. No, my {le re xa tadni} *always* has 26 referents, including when you predicate something non-distributive like "surround the building" of them. It never has one referent. The inner {rexa} indicates explicitly that it has 26 referents. > "the students surround the building and wear hats" > > The same thing that surrounds the building wears hats? No. The same thing*s* that surround the building wear hats. The plural is important there. > The same each things that wear hats each surround the building? ("Each things" is not standard English. "Each" takes a singular noun.) "Wear hats" is predicated distributively, and "surround the building" is predicated non-distributively, of the very same things, the students. > > No, in both cases it is only the 50 students that get referred, nothing else. > > 50 students get *mentioned*, but there is something that is implicitly > referred to when you say "50 students surround the building". Not under the pluralist take, no. There is no implicit or explicit reference to any encompassing entity. That's the defining feature of the pluralist view. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.