From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Jun 07 15:21:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61700 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2006 22:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2006 22:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2006 22:20:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fo6Ne-000334-QF for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:20:02 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fo6Lk-00031v-Gg; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:18:05 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fo6LJ-00031l-Ii for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:17:37 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.178]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fo6LG-00031e-GS for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:17:37 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id m51so353641pye for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.90.20 with SMTP id s20mr1378715pyl; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.39.13 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:17:32 -0600 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060606175408.36256.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11758 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=JuFjIvmlnLbv9T4njmTE_YwSsfxa2xIruD2-ef75rRWdkBm7gg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26179 On 6/7/06, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > "Mass"/"together" expands to "x1 is a mass with components x2". This > > is an actual relation. I consider that as significant in terms of > > content as you can get. > > That's pretty much exactly the definition of {gunma}. "x1 is a Yep, that's where I got the definition from. > mass/team/aggregate/whole, together composed of componets x2, considered > jointly." It seems pretty clearly that x1 is a mass, and that x2 is a plural > reference. No, it isn't a plural reference. It's a quite strictly a singular reference when it's the expanded form. Think of {nenri}, "x1 is within x2". Just as there's one container there (there could be two+, but we assume a {pa}) that each of many things can be within (it is true that each is within it), there's a single mass that things are components of (it is true that *each* is a component). > > .i lei tadni cu gunma le tadni > The mass of the students is a mass formed from the students. > > But if you don't permit plural reference, then what can possibly fill the x2 > there? It certainly can't be each student considered seperately (ro le > tadni). And it can't be the mass of the students, since that's exactly > what's in the x1. So what is it? It is each student considered seperately. It is true that Alice is a component part of, say, a crowd, or what-have-you. Same for each of Bryce, Carol, Daved, Eliza, [...]. > > And in case you're tempted to say it's actually the set, consider the > definitely of mei I'm not tempted. On this subject, I don't really like the way that mathematical sets are given so much priority. I have a much looser definition of 'set': "the three bears" pops three bears into my head, and that's a set of 3 bears, with no commitment at all to "group" or "mass" or whatever. > > x1 is the mass formed from set x2 whose n member(s) are x3. > > lei re xa tadni cu re xa mei le'i re xa tadni le re xa tadni > The mass of the 26 students is a mass with 26 members, formed from the set of > the 26 students whose members were the 26 students themselves. > (Yes, that's horribly redundant. Oh well.) > > So as far as your asking for proof that the language permits plural > predication (predication on several entities together, but distinct from a > distributive predication on individuals, or a predication on a mass), that > certainly seems like it to me. I'm curious how you interpret that, or what > you could possibly see filling the x2 of {gunma} or the x3 of {-mei}. > -- > Adam Lopresto > http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ > > Life is like a simile. > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.