From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jun 29 16:02:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30068 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2006 23:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Jun 2006 23:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2006 23:02:09 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fw5WS-0006rK-5s for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:02:08 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fw5V0-0006bk-Mn; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:39 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fw5UW-0006bV-RA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:08 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.234]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fw5UU-0006bJ-Ml for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:08 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i3so321559wra for ; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.192.4 with SMTP id u4mr3590315qbp; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.14.17 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560606291600r3c9d8954n5239ec45b6a30263@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:00:00 -0300 In-Reply-To: <737b61f30606291208u116ab072i7d77bc064d346a93@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30606291208u116ab072i7d77bc064d346a93@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11853 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: do jbopre speak slowly? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=BCeMHEvhVfBStfSh_K3B2VGCy8630Edxi5AkAI7MGxiqcBJE4Q X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26278 On 6/29/06, Chris Capel wrote: > Lojban seems to pack more information into individual phonemes than do > languges like English. (Compare the number and frequency of one > syllable words in the two languages.) In Lojban, there are only 190 one syllable words, out of 20,000 or more possible syllables. I suspect in English the ratio of monosyllables to possible syllables must be higher than that puny 1%. What is true is that in Lojban they are all concentrated in CV and CVV forms, since syllables of the form CCV, CCCV, CCVV, CCCVV, CVC, etc are not words. The same happens with words of more than one syllable. For example the shape CCVCCV is extremely densely packed, almost any possible word of that shape will be a more or less meaningful word, but then the neighbouring CCVCCCVV shape is practically empty, containing at most some odd fu'ivla. In English, words are probably not so concentrated in some particular syllable combinations, but I'm not sure if total words over total possible syllable combinations is more dense in Lojban than in English. > Thus, it seems like speaking > Lojban at the same speed and (lack of) clarity as one speaks English > would probably make it difficult to understand the Lojban. So, in > order to keep communication errors down, does this suggest that Lojban > speakers would naturally, probably unconciously, learn to speak > phonemes more slowly and clearly than do English speakers? Since Lojban words tend to have more syllables than English words, and there are less syllables available in Lojban (so less possibility for confusion) I suspect that syllables will tend to be pronounced faster in fluent Lojban than in fluent English. > Now, even if this were the case, it probably wouldn't *sound* like it, > because the rate of Shannon-information transfer would probably be > about the same, and that's probably what determines how "fast" speech > sounds to a fluent listener. But measured in phonemes/sec, it would be > slower. My impression is that in phonemes/sec Lojban will be faster, but I don't think we can do more than guess at this point. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.