From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Jun 02 17:40:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75716 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2006 00:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2006 00:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2006 00:40:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmKBh-0007Zq-5t for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:40:21 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmKAE-0007W5-NV; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:51 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmK9n-0007Vw-Ap for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:23 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmK9m-0007Vn-6B for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:23 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j40so670045ugd for ; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.250.17 with SMTP id x17mr1274803ugh; Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.255.6 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:38:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560606020624g2755230cv1d0598ba8bac944c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605310741g384f22b1k5b91aba8173006cd@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605311649w51e71fc5r26c9b71da03e94f3@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606010658xf47ef5t42fd427c4d5cfbb9@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606011742qd6ea6d1h9d95a01eba08c383@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606020624g2755230cv1d0598ba8bac944c@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-archive-position: 11710 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=EWqi_vcZ2kYyNIfJe_azl5TzWPg9AwSefwp8BASuZ801COZ3TA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26130 On 6/2/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 6/2/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > {le tadni} has 26 referents. This is independent of what you then predicate > > > about them. > > > > Ok, your {le tadni} *might* have 26 referents, or it might have 1 (a > > surrounder of the building), we don't know which and must decide based > > on context. > > No, my {le re xa tadni} *always* has 26 referents, including when you > predicate something non-distributive like "surround the building" of them. > It never has one referent. The inner {rexa} indicates explicitly that it has > 26 referents. > In "the 26 students surround the building" how many things are such that they *actually* surround the building? Note the difference between "playing a role in the surroundment" and "*actually* surrounding". No one of the 26 actually surrounds it, and it's not that "in one view they surround it, in another they don't". You can't say "Zoe surrounds the building". No one of the 26 actually surrounds it. So what surrounds the building? Well, to be sure, it's a "surrounder of the building" that surrounds it. What is it? A crowd? A mass? A group? Doesn't matter. Really, it doesn't have to be anything more than "a surrounder of the building" that is composed in some way of 26 students. But that's enough. And it's one thing, or at the very least something *different* from 26 students seen individually (as they would be seen if they were wearing hats, for example). There is only one thing. There are not 26 that fit that description. Just because you do not see in your mind a *crowd* surrounding a building does not mean that one entity (probably a crowd) does not surround it. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.