From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Jun 07 08:16:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43349 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2006 15:15:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jun 2006 15:15:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jun 2006 15:15:59 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FnziB-0005OC-Fj for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:12:47 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FnzgZ-0005Ls-Od; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:11:13 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fnzg8-0005Lb-Fq for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:10:40 -0700 Received: from express.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.21.16]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Fnzg5-0005LM-8W for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:10:40 -0700 Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu (hive.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.14]) by express.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id k57FAY3O023470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:10:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hive.cec.wustl.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k57FAYJD030585; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:10:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by hive.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id k57FAYW5030582; Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:10:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hive.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:10:34 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20060606175408.36256.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11755 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "Adam D. Lopresto" From: "Adam D. Lopresto" Reply-To: adam@pubcrawler.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=fAIw32B8YQ0WuUxUtzgKvH5_qq4SCHEUDrBhdEHePUA2W5uaqg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26176 On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > "Mass"/"together" expands to "x1 is a mass with components x2". This > is an actual relation. I consider that as significant in terms of > content as you can get. That's pretty much exactly the definition of {gunma}. "x1 is a mass/team/aggregate/whole, together composed of componets x2, considered jointly." It seems pretty clearly that x1 is a mass, and that x2 is a plural reference. .i lei tadni cu gunma le tadni The mass of the students is a mass formed from the students. But if you don't permit plural reference, then what can possibly fill the x2 there? It certainly can't be each student considered seperately (ro le tadni). And it can't be the mass of the students, since that's exactly what's in the x1. So what is it? And in case you're tempted to say it's actually the set, consider the definitely of mei x1 is the mass formed from set x2 whose n member(s) are x3. lei re xa tadni cu re xa mei le'i re xa tadni le re xa tadni The mass of the 26 students is a mass with 26 members, formed from the set of the 26 students whose members were the 26 students themselves. (Yes, that's horribly redundant. Oh well.) So as far as your asking for proof that the language permits plural predication (predication on several entities together, but distinct from a distributive predication on individuals, or a predication on a mass), that certainly seems like it to me. I'm curious how you interpret that, or what you could possibly see filling the x2 of {gunma} or the x3 of {-mei}. -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ Life is like a simile. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.