From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jun 01 07:05:49 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63023 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2006 14:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2006 14:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2006 14:00:43 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Flniy-0001Oe-5O for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 07:00:32 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FlnhI-0001N8-UC; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:49 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Flngq-0001Mz-Jl for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:20 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.206]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1Flngn-0001Mr-87 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:20 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id 4so293306nzn for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.191.20 with SMTP id t20mr375306qbp; Thu, 01 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.19 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560606010658xf47ef5t42fd427c4d5cfbb9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:58:15 -0300 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605291805y7f216d65v33b13eb6741ffda6@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605300707y79d20b95nd621ac89c5e17215@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605310741g384f22b1k5b91aba8173006cd@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605311649w51e71fc5r26c9b71da03e94f3@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11704 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=GZS8IvQmmMbCHoJKRDgBjH5l3iNcssTyOQkofz83ijHwZdGIWw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26124 On 5/31/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > Does each student perform part of the surroundment of the building? > No: looking at it this way was demonstrated useless. Actually, when the students surround the buiding, each student does perform part of the surrounding of the building. But the converse is not necessarily true. It could be, for example, that the students and the professors surround the building together. So there is a surrounding of the building taking place, and each student does take part in it, but the students by themselves don't surround the building. > "The students" can refer to a mass, or a set - is there anything else? > Nothing that has been demonstrated. There are also the students themselves. > If "the students" does not refer to each student, then it must refer > to a mass of them. In a singularist scheme, you are absolutely correct. In a pluralist scheme, variables can refer to many things at once, so "the students" can refer to many students at once. > "20 students" can be a set of 20 students. ("20 students" is an expression, it can't be a set.) "20 students" can refer to 20 students. It could also refer to a set (in the everyday sense of "set") of 20 students. In this sense "set", "mass" or "group" are interchangeable. > Ok, a set of students. I'm not talking about some special metaphysical > set, it's just that if I have two pencils in my hand, we call that "a > set of two pencils". Suppose I have a set of 6 color pencils, each of a different color. The set/group/mass of pencils is multicolor. Each pencil is one color. I don't think introducing an eighth entity, on top of the six pencils and the mass of them, will help clarify anything. > > le vitke cu pamei tolcliva > > The guests arrived singly. > > > > le vitke cu romei tolcliva > > The guests arrived "all-ly" (all together). > > > > le vitke cu remei tolcliva > > The guests arrived in pairs. > > > > You could easily do the first two with your method, but the third one > > would be more complicated. > > pair typeof arrival? No, I see no problem. You'd say it exactly as you > said it there: > > {ro lo vitke cu remei tolcliva} > all the guests pair-ishly arrived. Yes, that wasn't a very perspicuous example, because when a pair arrives, each member of the pair also arrives, so you can do that with your method, you're right. Before I change the example to a better one, however, this raises an interesting question. Suppose three guests arrive together and you see them enter the house together. We could say: lei ci vitke cu klama le zdani The three guests went into the house together. Now someone asks you: xo klama be le zdani cu se viska do How many goers-into-the-house did you see? Your answer is: (A) One. (The mass of three guests.) (B) Three. (The three guests.) (C) Four. (The three guests and the mass of three guests.) (D) Seven. (The three guests, the mass of three guests, and the three masses of two guests.) (E) Far too many to count (all the visible organs that compose the guests, and their corresponding masses.) (F) None of the above. Now, to change the example to something not distributable: le nanmu cu pamei bevri le pipno The men carried the piano singly. le nanmu cu romei bevri le pipno The men carried the piano "all-ly" (all together). le nanmu cu remei bevri le pipno The men carried the piano in pairs You could easily do the first two with your method, but the third one would be more complicated. > > > > They are all covered by "the students surrounded the pole". > > > > > > Ok, now tell me which one is the pluralist view. > > > > The pluralist view is that "the students surrounded the pole" covers > > them all. > > I see. So, in your pluralist view, you could say ... > > "the students [The students surrounded the pole one at a time.] and > [surrounded the pole in groups of three]" > > right? There must be a typo there somewhere, but I can't tell what you meant. >It's exactly so in my view, you just have to move some things > into the proper places: > > "[individually the students surrounded the pole] and [groups of three > students surrounded the pole]" Right, with the singularist view you have to repeat "the students". > This really brings us back to the building example: > > "the students surround the building and wear hats" > > Let's break this up: > > 13.1 "the students surround the building" > 13.2 "the students wear hats" > > In (1), what is the referent? "A surrounder of the building": "a mass > formed of students". Neither. "The students" does not have a single referent, it has many referents, namely student A, student B, student C, ... and student Z. > In (2), what is the referent? "Wearers of hats": "each student individually". The same as before, the referring expression "the students" does not take one value at a time. That's a job left to the predicate, "... wear hats". > The two referents are not the same. You can't pretend that they're the > same for the sake of translating > > "the students surround the building and wear hats" > > verbatim into Lojban. In the pluralist version, it makes no sense of talking about the two referents, because there are fifty referents involved, not two. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.