From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jun 26 07:46:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93442 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2006 14:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Jun 2006 14:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jun 2006 14:46:30 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FusM7-0002rj-JO for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:46:27 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FusKB-0002q7-NH; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:44:28 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FusJi-0002pl-F9 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:43:58 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.186]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FusJh-0002pZ-7b for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:43:58 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id m19so583966nfc for ; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.72.6 with SMTP id z6mr4798628nfk; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.49.92.1 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f30606260743v62381bb9u46f37bc7a86ad2ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:43:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: <449F7383.1070209@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30606202030p74723a2dtbfbeb20fb5904002@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30606202131m29311ab9md30f37ca320ae52c@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30606211550i24387f0fv7dfca878dfd8e630@mail.gmail.com> <96B70796-7396-494B-B1F6-0ED1E22E3A09@umich.edu> <737b61f30606221159t50b40646r5314bdd97f933ec@mail.gmail.com> <449F7383.1070209@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 11828 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Chris Capel" From: "Chris Capel" Reply-To: pdf23ds@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: flashcards? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=xw0RfgOMgVgbTGMV0au3kYGu1U0XgJPJ4phNRAHx6SCsexoPDw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26251 On 6/26/06, Paul Vigo wrote: > Chris Capel wrote: > > That's debatable. As I said earlier, a good flashcard program will > > earn you only about 15% additional retention on top of the 80% > > retention you have for new words introduced amidst a full context. > > (I.e. only about 1 of every 200-400 words is unfamiliar. Retention > > probably starts dropping when there are more unfamiliar words than > > that.) And it does take a lot of time to use. Is the 15% you gain more > > valuable than more time doing additional reading? Or grammar > > exercises? Or only reviewing trouble words? Or something else? > > This is the whole point, if you are only getting 15% retention then you > have overcommitted with your flashcard program. At first I thought this was a misreading, but now I think it's a bit more likely you meant to say "If you're only gaining 15% retention, you're putting too many easy words into the program. You should only put harder to remember words in there". The trouble with this approach, I think, is that it's impossible to tell how much trouble you're going to have with any individual word in the future. If you forget it the first time, you might remember it the next time, and if not, the time after that. By the time you notice it'd be a good candidate for a flash card program, it's just as likely (or even a little more) to be remembered without flashcards as completely new words would be. Forgetting a word three times doesn't mean you're more likely to forget it the fourth time than to remember it. And yes, there will be a few words you forget four times. But only about 10-20% the number that you forget three times. So entering a word that you've forgotten three times will gain you, at most, one remembered word on the fourth encounter per five entered. And that's still pretty hard to justify, I think. > When doing comprehension and reading > excercises and someone misreads a word, often the problem is residual > confusion from a previous unfamiliar word in the sentence (or previous > sentence). Vocabulary confusion seems to compound with the number of > novel words encountered, and retention of novel words is reduced in > proportion to this confusion. The brain sticks to things it doesn't > know, waiting for the clarity of understanding so that it can imprint > new knowledge - when several unknowns pop up at once this process loses > clarity and learning is reduced. I think the best way to avoid this is to pace yourself more slowly, and review old texts a few times until you're adequately comfortable with them, rather than introducing external things like flash card programs into the mix. And, as I've said before, I'm not entirely confident in this judgement. I think, though, that if a flash card program would be at all useful, it would be in the kind of supplementary capacity you're talking about, and if the costs of entering new words were very low. Here's an idea. Another web application. This one contains repositories of lojban texts, graded by difficulty. The plain texts are parsed and decorated with javascript so that you can mouse-over particular words to see glosses of them, or click to add the word to a online flashcard-style review. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.