Message-ID: <20060605195840.69527.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT)
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From: John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all}
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--- Maxim Katcharov <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 5/29/06, Jorge Llambías
> <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 5/29/06, Maxim Katcharov
> <maxim.katcharov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Avoiding the word "mass"/"crowd" when you
> say "the students" does not
> > > mean that "the students" does not refer to
> a group of students. It
> > > does.
> >
> > That's the singularist view, yes. But it is
> not the only possible view.
> 
> Ok, then please show an alternate view. You've
> flatly asserted that
> one exists, yet when I ask you to explain it, a
> vague two-word answer
> ("the students") with no explanation or
> demonstrative examples is all
> I get.

On a pluralist view, reference is a relation, not
a function, so that a single term may refer
simultaneously to several things.  A sentence
using this term will be true if those things are
in the extension of the predicate in the
appropriate way, either individually or together.
 From this basis, a complete semantics can be
(has been) developed, which produces the
classical system with the "among" relation added.
 In a totally parallel way, we can develop a
semantics with things and masses and the usual
definitions of truth and get the same classical
system with "among" added.  What is said is the
same, the conditions for truth are totally
intertranslatable, and so on.
 
> I doubt that you'll be left anything to explain
> your position with
> once you start explaining. The pluralist view
> relies on not looking
> too deeply at what "the students" means,
> because once you do you see
> that it's either a mass, or the students
> individually.
> 
> >
> > > Show me how and what "the students" refers
> to.
> >
> > In the pluralist view, it does not refer to
> one thing. It refers to
> > many things,
> > i.e. the many students.
> 
> Ok, then when I say "group of students", I too
> am "referring to many things".
> 
> Avoiding the word "mass"/"crowd" when you say
> "the students" does not
> mean that "the students" does not refer to a
> group of students. It
> does.

By you, yes.  By xorxes, no -- it is all about
the pictures in your head.

> "[The [many students]]" refers to a group of
> students.
> 
> >
> > > Additionally, I don't think that Lojban
> uses this mistaken concept of
> > > "plural predication": it seems that the
> book that describes it has not
> > > been published yet, and so Lojban predates
> it by about 20 years.
> >
> > That may be true. Is your argument then that
> conservatism requires
> > that we stick with the singularist view? (CLL
> does concede that pronouns
> > at least can refer to "individuals" or
> "masses" depending on context,
> > so even there one can find, at least in
> embryonic form, the pluralist view.)
> 
> My argument here was that the burden of proof
> is on you to show that
> a) this pluralist view exists and is correct,

Exists is easy; there is the book (and a number
of others going back to the late thirties).  Is
correct doesn't arise if the alternative is the
usual singularist view, since thye mare the same
thing.

> and b) that Lojban uses
> this pluralist view. Until you do this, you
> should not attempt to use
> this pluralist view in Lojban.

We can't tell, of course, which one Lojban uses
because we can't get inside Lojban's head. 
Further, Lojban does not have devices for
expressing some crucial distinction in the
theory.  So the best thing to say is that Lojban
ut nunc does not adhere to either view but
sometimes does things that look like one,
sometime like the other.  The proposal, stripped
of its picture thinking, is just to make Lojban
adequate for the view(s) and so get rid of a
number of false srtarts and missteps that a
previous state of ignorance forced on us.

> >
> > > Then what surrounds the building? Please
> give an explanation,
> > > hopefully a detailed one, as opposed to a
> vague 2-word answer.
> >
> > I'm afraid nothing further I might add will
> change your mind. Luckily
> 
> Why are you using the word "further" here? The
> only thing you've done
> to change my mind is answer "the students" when
> I ask "what does 'the
> students' refer to?".

But that is a completely adequate answer.  If you
don't see that, then it is unlikely that anything
else will work either.  I would be inclined to
have said that none of this matters, but that is
not going to be a point that works 200 some
entries into the discussion.

 
> > for you, and for anyone else who prefers the
> singularist view, nothing
> > in Lojban prevents you from putting that view
> into practice. If you are
> > consistent with your view you simply won't
> apply a distributive and a
> > non-distributive predicate to the same sumti,
> you will always have
> > to split your bridis in two in such cases.
> This may make some things
> > more cumbersome to express, and I see nothing
> gained by it, but it's
> > always doable.
> 
> Please show (a) and (b) before attempting to
> use your pluralist view
> in Lojban. Until you do, you should use the
> singularist view.

As noted, Lojban's adherence to the singularist
view in detail is as open to exception as a
pluralist view -- Lojban can't express either one
 in any thorough way.
 
> > > This brings us right back to:
> > >
> > > 2) You can't use {lo danlu cu bajra gi'e
> blabi} to refer to a white
> > > dog and running cats,
> >
> > Right, because the animals that are running
> are not the same animals
> > that are white. In the case of the students,
> the people that are wearing the
> > hats are the same people that are surrounding
> the building. If they were
> > not the same people you could not use one
> sumti for both predications.
> 
> You're switching the meaning of "the students"
> in mid-sentence. The
> thing that surrounds the building is one thing.

I wonder if this is really defensible.  If you
ask someone how many things are surrounding the
building, I expect that the answer "Fifty
students" will be more frequent than "One group
0of students." "A bunch of students" is also very
likely, but flat ambiguous, if you think
singularist and pluralist are really different.

> The thing(s) that wear
> hats are each something different. One thing
> being composed of others
> does not mean that it is the same as each
> component part.

And no one said it was.  
 
> I am composed of my organs. When I run, my
> organs do not run. My
> organs together (i.e. my body) runs.

Even that is open to some question; bodires tend
to be -- for purposes like running -- more than
the sum of their parts (well, at least different
from).

> >
> > > and so you can't use {[L_ muno tadni] cu
> [dasni
> > > lo mapku] gi'e [sruri le dinju]} to refer
> to a number of students and
> > > to a mass composed of students.
> >
> > Right, because the mass is not the students,
> so if you only allow singular
> > reference, you can refer either to the one
> mass of students or to each
> > one student individually.

But, of course, you can predicate of that mass
distributively (or could if the language
allowed).

> > But if you allow plural reference, then it is
> the very same students who
> > wear the hats and surround the building. In
> this case, the two predicates
> > are predicated of the _same_ referents, and
> so you can use one sumti to
> > refer to them.
> 
> What surrounds the building?
> (The students.)
> Does each student surround the building?
> (No.)
> Then what is it that surrounds the building?
> (The students.)
> So you mean the students together?
> (No, the students.)

Yes, the students together, not that is anything
other than the students; it is just a way that
are predicated of
> 
> I'm not being dense when I ask you these: I
> understand your position
> perfectly. You think that saying "the students"
> frees you from
> implying that they're a group. I recognize
> this, and I assert that
> it's incorrect. Avoiding the word
> "mass"/"crowd" when you say "the
> students" does not mean that "the students"
> does not refer to a group
> of students..

Well, actually it does. At least it allows it.


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