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( [70.224.74.45]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id k13sm1136693pyf.2006.07.05.03.55.13; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 03:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44AB99D6.2080700@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 06:52:06 -0400 From: Hugh O'Byrne User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban alphabets References: <20060704213716.99746.qmail@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44AB0A80.7040702@gmail.com> <925d17560607041853r23562af0xad7f31422c8369dd@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560607041853r23562af0xad7f31422c8369dd@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 11911 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: hobyrne@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Jorge Llambías wrote: > Some thoughts on a featural alphabet for Lojban: > > 1- In principle, I like it as an idea. In practice, I don't see the > community > of Lojbanists adopting one in the short term, simply because it would > be too impractical to do so. This could actually be a good thing, as it > allows the designers of such an alphabet plenty of time to tinker with > it without worrying that people will be learning a version that would then > become obsolete. :-) yay. Agreed on all points, including that the time could be well spent. I maintain there is wisdom in at least preparing for such a feature of the language. I was thinking I might win over John E Clifford, but now *you're* my best friend in the list. :) > 2- In terms of efficiency of number of symbols to be learned, I don't think > a lot is gained by going down to features. Not a lot. But some. > 2a- For vowels, there is no gain at all, as there are six vowels > and six features: a, e, i, o, u, y and open/mid/close, front/central/back). > One feature combination is unused (mid back) and three combinations > constitute the same phoneme: /a/ is just open, whether front, central or > back. Wow. Some meaty argument. I was looking forward to this. Thanks, Jorge. I'm going way to the limits of practicality here, but that's just because the game suddenly got more fun again :) and I wanna *play*! Please forgive my exuberance! y could be considered the 'center' vowel, indeed it's called the 'central mid vowel', and you can't get more centred than that. Vowels go in order away from y in one direction ('back'): 'o' 'u', and in order away from y in the other direction ('front'): 'a' 'e' 'i'. A sign/magnitude representation appears appropriate. Hm. Maybe my cultural familiarity with the 'a' symbol is affecting how I drew that map (a bad thing, yes? oh please say yes). I'm so used to making the 'a' sound more in the front. > 2b- For consonants, there are 19 consonants and 12 features (five > points of articulation, five manners of articulation, and voiced/unvoiced), > so while there is a slight gain in efficiency, it is not extremely > significant. Yay! Meaty. Mmmm. > 3- One possible advantage of a featural alphabet that I don't think has > been mentioned is that it might help with the learning of phonotactics. Um, I know *I* didn't bring it up. Never saw the word before. I'm glad you did! Thank you! > Some people have trouble recognizing which consonants are voiced and > which are unvoiced for example, so if this was encoded in the character > that represents the phoneme they would have an easier time knowing > when they are required to insert a {y} in making a lujvo. There are a few > other phonotactic rules that are based on features too. By the same token > though, a featural alphabet would also have the disadvantage of exposing > some other phonotactic rules as totally arbitrary :) Eh :) what is and is not arbitrary, where it belongs and is desired and is necessary, is a current point of contention in some parts of the globe (you may have noticed). Making it more transparent where it is and is not, IMHO, would be a *good* thing. mi'e .xius. -- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.