From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jul 08 09:24:49 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzFba-0003nf-3z for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:24:30 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.182]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzFbY-0003nX-CG for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:24:29 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so876083pyi for ; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:24:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EzIuOgdwumKMMhcDjSJxuqnABYFDXkptgV1X6YRQTegL1cBJmIpMM4Wg0+Z899wIoEAAhUTHktTSV2OsxJVqOdzkPniMDlXfP7nBKDUY2zDQSRbDxifp//MaHpLQeRgQwLEfYx1ol11eZitWSKi2akvcO2I2Q2y19orUZWfaCaE= Received: by 10.35.129.19 with SMTP id g19mr2855525pyn; Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.14.17 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jul 2006 09:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560607080924y2ff442bcqa6bddada11785a33@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 13:24:26 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: ZOI and culture neutrality In-Reply-To: <44AFD504.5090902@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44AF0325.2070709@gmail.com> <44AFD504.5090902@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11987 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 7/8/06, Hugh O'Byrne wrote: > > Point of opinion: Lojban writers should always have the freedom to > insert non-Lojban in such a way as that it is always pronouncable to > someone who knows all of Lojban, but none of any other language. I agree. But "knowing all of Lojban" involves knowing how to pronounce the 25 Lojban phonemes, it could never involve a requirement of being an expert in phonetics. Knowing how to read a phonetic alphabet requires a very specialized sort of knowledge, which most speakers of any language do not have. All you can do, in any language, when introducing foreign words, is to adapt them to the phonology of the host language. You can make an effort to maintain feature distinctions that are foreign to the host language if you feel like it, but that can never be a part of being fluent in the language. I could never become fluent in Lojban if I had to be able to produce all the phonetic distinctions that exist in English, for example, since some vowel distinctions that English makes are beyond my capabilities. So the only way a writer of Lojban has of inserting non-Lojban in such a way that they are sure it will be pronounceable by any fluent Lojban speaker is to adapt the non-Lojban to the phonology of Lojban. ZOI gives them the possibility of inserting non-Lojbanic distinctions if they please, but no guarantee that they will be understood by all fluent Lojban speakers. (For any Lojban phoneticians, the most convenient alphabet to use today is probably the IPA alphabet, but there is nothing to prevent some future Association of Lojban Phoneticians to design and use some other alphabet that they find more suitable. But that alphabet could never become a part of what you need to know to be an ordinary fluent speaker of Lojban.) mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.