From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Jul 12 17:58:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95372 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2006 00:38:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2006 00:38:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2006 00:38:05 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0pD3-0002bX-Sg for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:37:42 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0pC8-0002aA-0X; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:36:48 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0pBg-0002Ze-E5 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:36:16 -0700 Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0pBg-0002ZW-6O for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:36:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:36:16 -0700 Message-ID: <20060713003616.GD18359@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11+cvs20060403 X-archive-position: 12163 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -3.2 (---) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Is Lojban a CFG? (was Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Enumerating in Lojban) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=70TwJBR2YZuUYzw_3AZNaDWMEPY7WPRDjgRHE8U32qoZDebzDg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26590 On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 02:16:06AM -0400, Jonathan Gibbons wrote: > Forwarding the message I sent to the beginners list, because I > took far too long to catch on to the moved-ness of this thread. > Also continuing. > > >le nu le broda brode brodi > > Okay, now that one would be what I was looking for, I think. Okay. > Tossing that out as ungrammatical would appear to make Lojban into > a non-context-free language (being mildly nitpicky; the question > of "Is Lojban a CFG?" is trivially no; very few languages (sets of > strings) are context-free grammars (sets of production rules). "Is > lojban a CFL?" is, however, what it seems intended as. And, much > to my sadness, it seems to be a no; why it has been defined not to > be I don't quite understand, but that does look like the > counterexample; I still hold that it's a very odd way of forcing a > language into unambiguity, making it non-context-free.) > > Perhaps name the language I seem to be going to construct > "narvablojban"? a language that is a proper superset of Lojban > that's /actually/ context-free as well as semantically > unambiguous, rather than just close. > > -A very sad Jonathan Well, I didn't want to make you sad. Here's my shot at why it's like this: 1. "Not a CFG" != "not formalizable". Lojban is still formalizable and easily machine parseable (witness the PEG formalism, for example). 2. Elidable terminators seem to make intuitive sense to humans. 3. The lanugage would be *very* unwieldy as a CFG: way to many syllables would be expended in required required terminators. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.