From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Jul 09 07:18:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14393 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2006 13:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2006 13:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 2006 13:46:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzZcF-0007q8-O0 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:46:32 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzZZX-0007og-J5; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:43:45 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzZYr-0007oS-Qg for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:43:01 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FzZYo-0007oF-6h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:43:00 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so1009392pyi for ; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.103.12 with SMTP id f12mr4087075pym; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 06:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.14.17 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 06:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560607090642j320d13dcj98b78b6bf9408b5a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 10:42:52 -0300 In-Reply-To: <44B064B6.2000102@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <44AF0325.2070709@gmail.com> <44AFD504.5090902@gmail.com> <925d17560607080924y2ff442bcqa6bddada11785a33@mail.gmail.com> <44B064B6.2000102@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 12016 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: ZOI and culture neutrality X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=4eUEJ8KlNrAbHwxGgjcNLDfk-c5F6P5pSxr0DPED6eC0Svugbw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26443 On 7/8/06, Hugh O'Byrne wrote: > > Knowing *all* of Lojban (particularly CLL chapter 18) *does* involve the > requirement of being somewhat an expert in mathematics: factorials, > logarithms, vectors and matrices, even calculus! Now don't get me started on MEX! :) As pc points out, knowing all of Lojban does include (unfortunately I add) knowing how to construct grammatical mathematical expressions, but not necessarily understanding them. In my opinion, having a separate subgrammar for those mathematical expressions is a blemish of Lojban, not a feature in its favour. I would never have included it as part of the language. > > All you can do, in any language, when > > introducing foreign words, is to adapt them to the phonology of the host > > language. > > All you can do in any previous language. I see a power that Lojban > (potentially) has, that no other language (to my knowledge) has. I'd be > disappointed to see Lojban restricted by "well this is how it's always > been done before". I don't see Lojban being different from other languages in this respect. What could prevent anyone, when using English, or Spanish, or Chinese, or whatever language, from introducing foreign phrases in their speech or written text? > I try to paraphrase your position so I can better understand: Let me > know if I'm putting words in your mouth you don't want there. > > It seems your primary thought is to vote against *any* association > between Lojban and any one particular phonetic alphabet. Correct. > Your secondary thought (thank you for sticking with the issue to have > such deeper thoughts) appears to be: If it comes down to the point > where there *is* a vote on one phonetic alphabet, your vote would be for > IPA. No, I'd have to see first what the contenders were. But I really don't see how that could ever come to a vote for the LLG, since most members of the LLG (myself included) are not experts in phonetics. > My vision may be skewed in this area, but it seems to me that featural > aspects (conspicuously missing from the IPA) are gaining favour in the > group. Not that a vote for IPA will be discounted, I just wanted to > bolster my ego. :) Designing a featural phonemic alphabet for Lojban would be a cool thing to do. Selecting the features to include is the easy part, making the design look good is the hard part. I don't imagine the LLG as taking the task upon itself though. When and if such an alphabet is presented, I would see the LLG making some sort of mention of it as an alterantive, though not declaring it *the* official alphabet of Lojban. But a phonetic alphabet is a tool for linguists, not something that the LLG should be concerned with. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.