From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Jul 19 14:11:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20359 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2006 21:06:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2006 21:06:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 2006 21:06:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J9R-0002yf-JA for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:00:13 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J8H-0002wt-IP; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:59:02 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J7o-0002wj-0G for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:32 -0700 Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J7n-0002wc-0d for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:31 -0700 Received: (qmail 21068 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jul 2006 20:58:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20060719205829.21066.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.237.215.206] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:29 PDT Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560607191055p7c2679a1w34844c667d81eef6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 12252 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=pOhvThTfyFDUecTy6vUB0w5RofZ3MsHfzFLRUN9pGd5yzIsevQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26678 --- Jorge Llamb�as wrote: > On 7/19/06, John E Clifford wrote: > > --- Jorge Llamb�as wrote: > > > > > If the boys carrying chairs in pairs makes "the boys carry chairs" c-true, > > > then surely the boys carrying chairs individually must make it c-true as well. > > > > I agree, in this case. But it could be c-true without their carrying them > > individually (as in your example above), so it could be c-true and not d-true. > > That has never been in dispute. > > On the other hand,"the students wore > > hats" is d-true but not c-true (on a normal reading) > > What is the difference between wearing a hat and carrying a chair that > makes "the students carry chairs" c-true but "the students wear hats" > not c-true, when in both cases each student does? > At least two things: 1) hats, by their nature, can only be worn by one person at a time, so the collective does not make sense 2) "hats" is indefinite: if it were "the students wore THE hats" a collective would be possible because we now have a specific group to cover, that is we can get a group-group relationship which is not available with the indefinite (to be sure three is the group of worn hats, but that is not mentioned, it merely is. Note that the collective sense for wearing hats can only arise from the distributive one, whereas the case for carrying chairs might come from any arrangement of the members of the group and the chairs. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.