From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Jul 11 15:37:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36362 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2006 22:08:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2006 22:08:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2006 22:08:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0QOQ-0002jH-AC for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:07:46 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0QN8-0002ih-2v; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:06:27 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0QMh-0002iN-3V for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:05:59 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.180]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0QMf-0002iE-1A for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:05:58 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id 39so3808pyu for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.111.14 with SMTP id o14mr3009pym; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.39.7 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 16:05:49 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20060711211046.23211.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060711211046.23211.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 12122 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=6oPx3sC0XYa3x2yOtkI3KBCQq-Jc58N6nVRy8to7r5ko1FKErA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26549 T24gNy8xMS8wNiwgSm9obiBFIENsaWZmb3JkIDxjbGlmZm9yZC1qQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ+ IHdyb3RlOgo+IC0tLSBNYXhpbSBLYXRjaGFyb3YgPG1heGltLmthdGNoYXJvdkBnbWFpbC5j b20+IHdyb3RlOgo+Cj4gPiBPbiA3LzExLzA2LCBKb3JnZSBMbGFtYu+/vWFzIDxqamxsYW1i aWFzQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cj4gPiA+IE9uIDcvMTEvMDYsIE1heGltIEthdGNoYXJv diA8bWF4aW0ua2F0Y2hhcm92QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cj4gPiA+Cj4gPiA+ID4gVGhl IGlzc3VlIEkgaGF2ZSBzdGlsbCBzdGFuZHMuIFdlJ3JlIGNsYWltaW5nCj4gPiA+ID4gc29t ZXRoaW5nIGFib3V0IHNvbWV0aGluZywgeWVzPwo+ID4gPgo+ID4gPiBOb3QgYWJvdXQgc29t ZSBvbmUgdGhpbmcsIGFib3V0IG1hbnkgdGhpbmdzLCB5ZXMuCj4gPiA+Cj4gPiA+ID4gVGhh dCBzb21ldGhpbmcsIHRvIG1lLCBpcyB0aGUgc3R1ZGVudHMKPiA+ID4gPiB0cmVhdGVkIGFz IGEgc2luZ2xlIGVudGl0eS4gSG93IGFyZSB5b3UgY2xhaW1pbmcgaXQgYWJvdXQgdGhlIG11 bHRpcGxlCj4gPiA+ID4gdGhpbmdzPyBUaGF0IGl0J3MgdHJ1ZSBvZiB0aGVtIHdoZW4geW91 J3JlIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHRoZW0gYXMgYSBtYXNzLAo+ID4gPiA+IGJ1dCBub3Qgd2hlbiB0 aGV5J3JlIGFwYXJ0Pwo+ID4gPgo+ID4gPiBJIGRvbid0IG5lZWQgdG8gY29uc2lkZXIgdGhl bSBhcyBvbmUgdGhpbmcgdG8gbWFrZSBhIGNsYWltIGFib3V0IHRoZW0uCj4gPgo+ID4gWW91 IG11c3QgYmUgYWJzb2x1dGVseSB1bmNhbm55IGF0IG1lbW9yeSBnYW1lcyBsaWtlIG1hdGNo IHRoZSBjYXJkcywKPiA+IHNpbW9uLCBldGMuIFRoZSBhdmVyYWdlIGh1bWFuIGhhcyB0cm91 YmxlIGtlZXBpbmcgMTAgbnVtYmVycyBmbG9hdGluZwo+ID4gaW4gdGhlaXIgaGVhZCBmb3Ig bW9yZSB0aGFuIHNvbWUgc2Vjb25kcyB3aXRob3V0IGxvc2luZyBzb21lLCBJIGZpbmQKPiA+ IGl0IGFtYXppbmcgdGhhdCB5b3UgY2FuIGtlZXAgMTAwIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgc3R1ZGVudC1l bnRpdGllcyBpbiB0aGUKPiA+IGNvbnNjaW91cyBtaW5kIGxvbmcgZW5vdWdoIHRvIHJlbGF0 ZSBlYWNoIGRpcmVjdGx5Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEEgbG9naWNhbCBsYW5ndWFnZSBzaG91bGQgYmUg YSByZWZsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHRob3VnaHQsIGFuZCBub3QgYQo+ID4gZ2VuZXJhbCBhcHByb3hp bWF0aW9uLiBJdCdzIHRydWUgdGhhdCB3aGVuIHdlIHNheSAiZG9ncyIgd2UgbWVhbiAiYXQK PiA+IGxlYXN0IDIgZG9ncyIsIGJ1dCB0aGlzIGlzIGFuIGVmZmVjdCwgYW5kIG5vdCB0aGUg dGhpbmcgdGhhdCBhZmZlY3RzLgo+Cj4gWW91IGhhdmUgYSBzdHJhbmdlIG5vdGlvbiBvZiBh IGxvZ2ljYWwgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgKHNlZSBzY3JlZWQgZXZlcnl3aGVyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUpIGFu ZCBhbHNvIGEKPiBzdHJhbmdlIGlkZWEgb2YgaG93IGxhbmd1YWdlIHdvcmtzLgoKT2suCgo+ dGhlIG5vdGlvbiB0aGF0IGxhbmd1YWdlIHJlZmxlY3RzIGluIGFueSB2ZXJ5IGRpcmVjdCB3 YXkgd2hhdAo+IGdvZXMgb24gaW4gdGhlIG1pbmQgd2VudCBvdXQgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgY2Vu dHVyaWVzIGFnbywgd2hlbiBpdCB3YXMgc2hvd24gdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIG5vIHN1Y2gK PiBjb3JyZWxhdGlvbnMgLS0gZWl0aGVyIGJldHdlZW4gY29uc2Npb3VzIHRob3VnaHQgYW5k IHNwZWVjaCBvciBiZXR3ZWVuIGJyYWluIGV2ZW50cyBhbmQgc3BlZWNoLiBJZgoKTXkgdW5k ZXJzdGFuZGluZyB3YXMgdGhhdCB3ZSBrbm93IGp1c3QgYmFyZWx5IGFueXRoaW5nIGFib3V0 IGhvdwpyZWFkaW5ncyBvZiBicmFpbiBhY3Rpdml0eSBhY3R1YWxseSBtYXAgb3V0IHRvIHRo ZSB0aG91Z2h0cyB0aGF0IHdlJ3JlCmhhdmluZy4gSWYgeW91IHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgSSdtIHRh bGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHBoeXNpY2FsIGJyYWluLCBJJ20KYWZyYWlkIHRoYXQgeW91J3Jl IG1pc3Rha2VuLiBJIGhhdmUgbm8gaW5zdHJ1bWVudCB0byBtZWFzdXJlIGFjdHVhbApicmFp biBhY3Rpdml0eS4gQWxsIEkgaGF2ZSBpcyB0aGUgb3JnYW4gdGhhdCBzZW5zZXMgbXkgdGhv dWdodHMuCgo+IHlvdXIgd2hvbGUgcG9pdCBjb21lcyBkb3duIHRvICJ3ZSBjYW4ndCBkZWFs IG1lbnRhbGx5IHdpdGggdGhpcnR5IHRoaW5ncyBkaXJlY3RseSBidXQgb25seSBieQo+IGNv bnN0cnVjdGluZyBhIG1lbnRhbCBib3ggdG8gYWN0IGZvciB0aGVtIGNvbGxlY3RpdmVseSIg SSB3b3VsZCBzYXkgdGhhdCBJIHdvdWxkbid0IGJlIHN1cnByaXNlZAoKVGhpcyBpcyBvbmUg c3VwcG9ydGluZyBleGFtcGxlLCB5ZXMuIFRoZSBvbmUgSSdtIHRyeW5pZyB0byBnZXQgYXQg bm93LAp0aG91Z2gsIGlzIHRoZSBsYWNrIG9mIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIGZvciB0aGUgcGx1cmFs aXN0IHZpZXcuIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvCmtub3cgd2hhdCBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgaXMgYmVpbmcg cmVsYXRlZC4gU29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgInRoZSBzdHVkZW50cyIKKHdoaWNoIGlzIGp1c3Qg cmVwZXRpdGlvbikgaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoYXQgaXQncyBlaXRoZXIgdGhlIHN0dWRlbnRzCmVh Y2ggaW4gc29tZSBzdHJhbmdlIGZhc2hpb24sIG9mIHRoZSBzdHVkZW50cyBhcyBhIGdyb3Vw LCAidGhlCnN0dWRlbnRzIiBiZWluZyBhbiBpZGVudGl0eS4gVGhlc2UgYXJlIG15IGV4cGxh bmF0aW9ucywgYW5kIGZpdCBteQp2aWV3LiBXaGF0J3MgdGhlIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIGZvciB0 aGUgcGx1cmFsaXN0IHZpZXc/Cgo+IHRoYXQgaXMgdHJ1ZS4gIEJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IHNlZSB0 aGF0IHRoYXQgbWVhbnMgdGhlcmUgcmVhbGx5IGlzIC0tIGFzIG9wcG9zZWQgdG8gaXMgaW4g bXkgbWluZCAtLSBhCj4gYm94IHRoYXQgYWN0cyBmb3IgdGhlbSBjb2xsZWN0aXZlbHkuICBJ IGRvIGEgbG90IG9mIGFyaXRobWV0aWMgb24gbXkgZmluZ2VycyBhbmQgdG9lcywgYnV0IGZp bmdlcnMKPiBhbmQgdG9lcyBhcmUgbm90IG1hdGhlbWF0aWNhbCBvYmplY3RzLCBub3QgcGFy dCBvZiBhcml0aGVtZXRpYy4KCkkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGhvdyB5b3VyIGFuYWxvZ3kgbWFrZXMg c2Vuc2UuCgpIdW1hbnMgY2FuJ3QgY29uY2lldmUgb2YgMzAwIGlkZW50aXRpZXMgc2ltdWx0 YW5lb3VzbHksIGxldCBhbG9uZSBrZWVwCnRoZW0gdXAgbG9uZyBlbm91Z2ggdG8gcHJlZGlj YXRlIHNvbWV0aGluZyBhYm91dCBlYWNoIG9mIHRoZW0KaW5kaXZpZHVhbGx5LiBUaGUgdmll dyB0aGF0IHtkb30gc3VwcG9ydCByZWxpZXMgb24gdGhpcy4gTXkgdmlldwpoYW5kbGVzIGFu eSBudW1iZXIgb2Ygc3R1ZGVudHMgd2l0aCBvbmx5IDIgaWRlbnRpdGllcy4gVGhpcyBzdWdn ZXN0cwp0aGF0IG15IHZpZXcgbWlnaHQgYmUgcmlnaHQsIGFuZCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgaXMgcHJv YmFibHkgd3JvbmcsIGF0IGxlYXN0CmFzIGZhciBhcyByZWxhdGluZyB0aGluZ3MgaW5kaXZp ZHVhbGx5IGdvZXMuIChOb3RlIHRoYXQgSSdtIHNwZWFraW5nCmhlcmUgbW9yZSBvZiBkaXN0 cmlidXRpdmUgcHJlZGljYXRpb24gdGhhbiBub24uKQoKPgo+ID4gPgo+ID4gPiBZb3UgbWF5 LCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0bywgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlbSBhcyBvbmUgdGhpbmcuIEl0IG1ha2Vz IG5vIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UKPiA+ID4gZm9yIHRoaXMgcGFydGljdWxhciBjYXNlLiBJdCBvbmx5 IG1ha2VzIGEgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSB3aGVuIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8KPiA+ID4gY29tYmluZSBkaXN0 cmlidXRpdmUgYW5kIG5vbi1kaXN0cmlidXRpdmUgY2xhaW1zIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIHNlbnRl bmNlLgo+ID4gPgo+ID4gPiA+IFBlcmhhcHMgYSAuLi4idmlzdWFsIiBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBv ZiB0aGUgbW9kZWwgb2YgdGhvdWdodCB0aGF0IEknbQo+ID4gPiA+IHVzaW5nIHdvdWxkIGhl bHAuIEltYWdpbmUgdGhhdCB5b3UgaGF2ZSBzaW5ndWxhciAndGhpbmdzJyAoaWRlbnRpdGll cykKPiA+ID4gPiBmbG9hdGluZyBhcm91bmQgdXAgdGhlcmUsIGFuZCByZWxhdGlvbnNoaXAt c3RyYW5kLXRoaW5ncyBjb25uZWN0IHRoZW0KPiA+ID4gPiB0byBlYWNoIG90aGVyL2Fic3Ry YWN0aW9ucy4gU28gd2hlbiB5b3UgdGhpbmsgb2YgImh1bWFuaXR5IiwgYSBjZXJ0YWluCj4g PiA+ID4gc2luZ3VsYXIgdGhpbmcgaXMgYnJvdWdodCB1cCwgYW5kIHlvdSBrbm93IGJ5IGZv bGxvd2luZyBzb21lIHZlcnkKPiA+ID4gPiBzdHJvbmcgc3RyYW5kcyB0aGF0IGl0J3MgY29t cG9zZWQgb2YgbWFueSBodW1hbnMsIGFuZCBzbyBvbi4gV2hlbgo+ID4gPiA+IHNvbWVvbmUg c2F5cyAidGhlIHN0dWRlbnRzIiwgYSBzaW5nbGUgdGhpbmcgaXMgY3JlYXRlZCwgYW5kIHRo ZW4KPiA+ID4gPiBwZXJoYXBzIHRoZXkgdGVsbCB5b3UgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIDEwMCBv ZiB0aGVtLCBhbmQgYSBzdHJhbmQgaXMKPiA+ID4gPiBzcHVuIGZyb20gdGhhdCB0aGluZyB0 byB0aGF0IG51bWJlci4KPiA+ID4gPgo+ID4gPiA+IE5vdywgd2hlbiB5b3UgdGVsbCBtZSB0 aGF0IHNvbWV0aGluZyBpcyBwcmVkaWNhdGVkIG9mIDEwMCBzaW5ndWxhcgo+ID4gPiA+IHRo aW5ncywgYW5kIG5vdGhpbmcgZWxzZSBpcyBpbnZvbHZlZCwgYnV0IHRoYXQgbm9uZSBvZiB0 aG9zZSAxMDAKPiA+ID4gPiB0aGluZ3MgaGFzIGEgbGl0dGxlIHN0cmFuZCAob3IgYSBzZXJp ZXMgb2Ygc3RyYW5kcykgY29ubmVjdGluZyBpdAo+ID4gPiA+IHNvbWVob3cgdG8gdGhlIGJ1 aWxkaW5nLCBJIGhhdmUgdG8gd29uZGVyIHdoYXQgdGhlIGhlY2sncyBiZWluZwo+ID4gPiA+ IHJlbGF0ZWQuIEFuZCByZWFsbHksIHNwZWFraW5nIG9mIHRoZXNlIDEwMCBzaW5ndWxhciB0 aGluZ3Mgc2VlbXMKPiA+ID4gPiBhYnVyZDogdW5sZXNzIHlvdSdyZSBhIHNhdmFudCwgSSBk b3VidCB0aGF0IHlvdSdyZSBjYXBhYmxlIG9mIGtlZXBpbmcKPiA+ID4gPiB0aGF0IG1hbnkg dGhpbmdzIHNpbXVsdGFuZW91c2x5IGluIHlvdXIgbWluZCBpbiB0aGUgZmlyc3QgcGxhY2Uu IE15Cj4gPiA+ID4gYnJhaW4gc2VlbXMgdG8gZ28gd2l0aCB0d286IHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQg dGhleSdyZSBzdHVkZW50cywgYW5kIHRoZQo+ID4gPiA+IGZhY3QgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBhcmUg MTAwIG9mIHRoZW0uCj4gPiA+Cj4gPiA+IEhvdyBkb2VzIHlvdXIgbWluZCBtYW5hZ2UgdG8g cHJvY2VzczoKPiA+ID4KPiA+ID4gICAgcm8gbGUgcGFub25vIHRhZG5pIGN1IGRhc25pIGxv IG1hcGt1Cj4gPiA+Cj4gPiA+IHRoZW4/Cj4gPgo+ID4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIDIgaWRlbnRpdGll cyAoWCBhbmQgWSksIGJvdGggYXJlIHBsdXJhbHMuIFggaXMgdGhlIHN0dWRlbnRzLAo+ID4g WSBpcyB0aGUgaGF0cy4gWCwgdGhlIHRoaW5nIHRoYXQgaXMgdGhlIHN0dWRlbnRzIGhhcyAx MDAgb2YgdGhlbS4gVGhleQo+ID4gYXJlIHJlbGF0ZWQgd2l0aCAnd2VhcnMnIG5vbi1kaXN0 cmlidXRpdmVseSAod2hpY2ggSSBrbm93IHRvIG1lYW4gdGhhdAo+ID4gaWYgYSBuZXcgaWRl bnRpdHkgd2FzIGEgJ2NvbXBvbmVudCcgb2YgWCwgdGhlbiBpdCB3b3VsZCBmb2xsb3cgdGhh dCBpdAo+ID4gd291bGQgYmUgd2VhcmluZyBzb21lIGNvbXBvbmVudCBvZiBZKS4gRnVydGhl cm1vcmUsIEkgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQgdGhlCj4gPiBub24tZGlzdHJpYnV0aXZlIHJlbGF0aW9u c2hpcCBpcyAxdG8xOiBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIHRpbWUgdGhhdCB3ZSBjYXJlIHRvCj4gPiBjb21t dW5pY2F0ZSBhYm91dCwgc3R1ZGVudHMgcHJvYmFibHkgYXJlbid0IHN3aXRjaGluZyAyIGhh dHMgYW1vbmdzdAo+ID4gdGhlbXNlbHZlcywgYW5kIGVhY2ggc3R1ZGVudCBoYXMgdGhlaXIg b3duIGhhdC4KPgo+IEkgd291bGQgaGF2ZSB0aG91Z2h0IHRoYXQgIndlYXJzIiBpcyBwcmVj aXNlbHkgZGlzdHJpYnV0aXZlLiAgIldlYXJzIiBpcyB0cnVlIG9mIHRoZSBzdHVkZW50cywK PiBqdXN0IGluIGNhc2UgaXQgaXMgdHJ1ZSBvZiBlYWNoIHN0dWRlbnQgaW5kaXZpZHVhbGx5 IChhbmQgc2ltaWxhcmx5IGZvciBoYXRzIC0tIHB1dHRpbmcgdGhlIHR3bwo+IHRvZ2V0aGVy IGNvcnJlY3RseSBpcyBoYXJkZXIsIGJ1dCB0aGUgcHJvY2VzcyBpcyBhYm91dCBhcyB5b3Ug ZGVzY3JpYmUuKQoKWWVwLCBJIGdvdCBkaXN0cmlidXRpdmUgYW5kIG5vbi1kaXN0