From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jul 03 07:48:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31262 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2006 14:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2006 14:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2006 14:37:22 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxPY8-0000xm-MO for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:37:20 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxPXd-0000wk-E4; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:50 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxPX7-0000wJ-RJ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:17 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.177]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxPX5-0000wA-Ur for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:17 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id 39so993825pyu for ; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.135.12 with SMTP id m12mr2825238pyn; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [70.224.74.45]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id m68sm2020828pye.2006.07.03.07.36.14; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44A92AA8.5090201@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:33:12 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3b9.4a3affd.31da5888@wmconnect.com> In-Reply-To: <3b9.4a3affd.31da5888@wmconnect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 11879 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: hobyrne@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: Hugh O'Byrne From: Hugh O'Byrne Reply-To: hobyrne@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban writing system X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Qyx_xkShmxIDBJ7HMBH6qInAh7cWY4kB6R2tgiR93TEbfAnybQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26304 MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/2006 4:23:08 AM Central Standard Time, > ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes: er... *who* writes? Did my identity really come up as ecartis@digitalkingdom.org? >> I am a Lojbanist. I'm not a member of the ruling elite, or the steering >> committee, I'm not even barely fluent. I am a Lojbanist. I do see room >> for improvement, and I do think it's a worthy goal, to improve upon >> Lojban. I am a Lojbanist. I am a part of Lojban. > > Why not deal with this issue *in* Lojban? I've already answered that question, but I'll answer it again if it bears repeating. I'm not even barely fluent. While I'm on the subject of what bears repeating: I *am* still a Lojbanist. Since mere repetition is not a useful contribution, I'll elaborate. My goal is to communicate an idea. The best idiom for me to communicate it in, is English. The value of the substance is independent of the conveyance. Adding value to the conveyance would be good, granted, but... I'm lazy. I'm counting on the inherent value of the idea. I'm hoping there's some leeway on form of expression, when the thing being expressed is what's important. If there's not that much leeway, let me know, I'll go away. I would understand completely if it is the policy of this list to discourage posts not written in the Lojban language - if there is such a policy, let me know. While I'll stick to my guns if some individuals in a community don't like my posts, I will leave, disappointedly, but peacefully, if the community as a whole doesn't want me. I've seen some Internet politics. I don't want to be remembered hatefully. Of course, the obvious counter-question to "Why not deal with this issue *in* Lojban?" is: Why not deal with it in English? And, in anticipation of that question, you answered: > After learning the language > well enough to do this, you might be better able to make your case. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Do you think I'm doing a poor job of making my case, currently? I honestly want to know. I suspect the biggest effect by far would be to improve the *perceived* legitimacy of the idea, not the *actual* legitimacy. Hm. I had another paragraph here, but I can't seem to write it without getting offensive, so I'll leave it off. > I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to use a different alphabet for > Lojban, even though I know several different alphabets already. I do not intend to force you to learn a different alphabet. In fact, I have absolutely no way to coerce you (except words). The only power I have over you is the power you give me. If you decide to give me no power, I am no threat to you. If you decide to give me no power, *shrug* well, I'm just fine with that. If you *do* decide to give me power, though, that's your choice, and if you're uncomfortable with that... well, I'm not going to take responsibility for that. But if you're focussing on the power element, you're missing the point I'm trying to make. In fact, that whole post had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, except the last sentence, as a vote against the idea. And I'm okay with that, I know there'll be votes against it, and I'm interested to hear reasons behind those votes, even if it's just "I have no desire". And I do have some (conditional, limited) 'yes' votes: Mark E. Shoulson wrote "Ah, using VS as an 'official' culturally-neutral Lojbanic spelling for things inside ZOI (and la'o) quotes; THAT is truly excellent". So I do feel justified in leading the crusade, for a little longer at least. And the specifics of the idea are still fluid. For example, I've learned that a phonemic alphabet is what's good for Lojban, and definitely *not* a phonetic one. I'm not throwing a brick at you, I'm throwing a piece of paper, and inviting you to write on it too. mi'e .xius. -- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.