From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Jul 11 13:11:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94447 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2006 20:09:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2006 20:09:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2006 20:09:21 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0OX2-0000Ka-A4 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:08:32 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0OVU-0000Ip-6j; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:56 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0OV3-0000IZ-L4 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:29 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.180]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0OV2-0000IR-Tv for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:29 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id 39so73389pyu for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.90.20 with SMTP id s20mr7102161pyl; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.39.7 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:06:27 -0600 In-Reply-To: <925d17560607111231k58afe993of960d8ce8e932b4b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060711154654.99785.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560607111231k58afe993of960d8ce8e932b4b@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12107 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Maxim Katcharov" From: "Maxim Katcharov" Reply-To: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=De_-vAMet2D-HdMAStABEetnoTSBffCePsQRrugk2CKDGyUYRg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 26533 On 7/11/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 7/11/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > Also, I've mentioned it before, > > but if we're not referring to any one of the students in "the students > > surround the building", then what is being considered? > > But we are referring to each of the students. What we are not doing is > claiming, of each of the students, that they surround the building. There > is a difference between "refer" (that's what sumti are used for, to refer) and > "claim" (that's what selbri are used for, to claim something of the things > we refer to with the sumti). We may refer with one sumti to several things > at the same time, and in the same sentence not claim anything about each > of the things we refer to, but only make a claim about all the things we > referred to together. Sure, if you'd like. The issue I have still stands. We're claiming something about something, yes? That something, to me, is the students treated as a single entity. How are you claiming it about the multiple things? That it's true of them when you're considering them as a mass, but not when they're apart? Perhaps a ..."visual" explanation of the model of thought that I'm using would help. Imagine that you have singular 'things' (identities) floating around up there, and relationship-strand-things connect them to each other/abstractions. So when you think of "humanity", a certain singular thing is brought up, and you know by following some very strong strands that it's composed of many humans, and so on. When someone says "the students", a single thing is created, and then perhaps they tell you that there were 100 of them, and a strand is spun from that thing to that number. Now, when you tell me that something is predicated of 100 singular things, and nothing else is involved, but that none of those 100 things has a little strand (or a series of strands) connecting it somehow to the building, I have to wonder what the heck's being related. And really, speaking of these 100 singular things seems aburd: unless you're a savant, I doubt that you're capable of keeping that many things simultaneously in your mind in the first place. My brain seems to go with two: the fact that they're students, and the fact that there are 100 of them. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.